|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Being away of late, i was surprised to see no one here is discussing this case.
I know it's overkill right now but perhaps we can discuss the political ramifications of the U.S. government stepping into the fray rather than the typical "do you beleive the parents or the husband" noise.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Either way, Terri's gonna die a terrible death.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
What I found rather ironic is the fact that the conservatives are now desperate to find an "activist" judge?
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
I was actually going to start a thread about it, but I thought it would end up in a flame war.
Anyhow, this is what I think of it.
Her husband is a complete ass. Since she went into a vegetative state 15 years ago he has gotten a girlfriend and now has two kids with her, which I see as him moving on. He should have been divorced from her a long time ago. Her family, who all want to keep her alive should be the ones making the decisions. They should be allowed to keep her alive as long as they financially can.
One of the things that really upsets me about this is the government getting involved. This is a family matter and not a government matter. They have absolutely no right to get involved.
I know this will end badly either way, but I hope this makes people realize how important it is to have a living will. This situation could have been made a lot easier if she had a living will.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Since this has become a cause celebre for the religious right, i thought that the layers upon layers of hypocrisy of this case is astounding.
For instance, the issue of federalism and states rights. A Conservative beleif. Out the window.
Tort Reform: Terri Schiavo has been kept alive this long on the settlement from a malpractice lawsuit. No more say Congressional Republicans.
President Bush states that in extraordinary circumstances we should always err on the side of life. Given this hypothesis, how can the death penalty ever be justified in a purely circumstantial-evidence murder conviction?
"Activist" Judges: As has been posted already. Republicans may have lost credibility in that debate by sending conflicting signals about the kinds of the judges they truly desire. We have the Congress of the United States acting as if they can disregard the Constitution in its entirety to get the result it wanted.
It's also important to add:
Terry Schiavo feels no pain.
She feels no thirst.
She feels no hunger.
Because her cerebral cortex has been, in the words of her doctors, "liquidated."
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
I don't care if she doesn't feel pain. We have no right to take innocent human life. It's a boundary that can't be crossed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
I don't care if she doesn't feel pain. We have no right to take innocent human life. It's a boundary that can't be crossed.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Quote:
Pariah said:
I don't care if she doesn't feel pain. We have no right to take innocent human life. It's a boundary that can't be crossed.
To argue that point,
aren't we prolonging her death and not her life? If there is no way for her to recover wouldn't the humane thing to do it let her die?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Catch-22. She doesn't care either way.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
I agree with Rex. I'd think Christians would want to free her soul from that prison of a body. A body that is capable of only the most rudimentary form of "life".
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
What do you think of the reports that her husband beat her? Do you believe and of them?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
|
|
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
Christians don't generaly believe in expelling a soul we've ascertained as being innocent. This is very slippery. Especially with how you're expecting me to define "life". All I know is, I have no right to take it, no matter what condition it's in. That's true from secularist POV as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
I caught video of the husband on Larry King. He looked completely drained on a spiritual level. I do beleive he's doing it for the woman he loves. Plus I read an article today on the demonization of the guy. There's some really outrageous and over the top attacks on the guy going on. I can't side with that.
Plus, i've been there in this situation. Only it was reversed. (g-friend's) Parents wanted their (eldest)daughter to be in peace. Husband couldn't bear to let go.
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
I haven't seen the husband on anything yet, but how can he still "love" someone after not being able to communicate with her?
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Because he married her and spent 8 good years as her partner. Here's excerpts from the aforementioned peice on Michael Schivo. I'll see if I can find video of the Larry King episode:
Quote:
Demonized by his in-laws, antiabortion activists and the religious right, Michael Schiavo has become the target of accusations that he caused her heart attack and collapse with abusive, violent behavior; that he fabricated the story that she wouldn't want to live this way only after collecting more than $1 million in a malpractice claim; that he has sabotaged her therapy and barred her friends and family from comforting visits; and that he wants her to die so he can marry a woman with whom he has lived for the last few years and fathered two children.
Michael Schiavo has vehemently denied the accusations of abuse, greed and heartlessness in interviews and to investigators, and an independent report to Gov. Jeb Bush and the judicial system two years ago said "the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care."...
Schiavo took his wife to California for experimental treatment in fall 1990, when a thalamic stimulator was implanted in her brain. Some neurologists now consider that an obstacle to further MRI scans to assess her brain function.....
"He's blocked her parents from visiting for months on end. He won't allow the shades to be opened in her room, so she's in total darkness. He was a loving husband only for as long as it took to get the malpractice money, and now he just wants to get rid of her," charged Carol Rubright, a Port Charlotte resident who makes the nearly two-hour trip to the hospice daily to show solidarity with the Schindlers.
The 1993 medical malpractice award in response to a petition filed by Michael Schiavo on his wife's behalf created a trust in which $750,000 was deposited for Terri Schiavo's medical care and upkeep and $300,000 went to her husband for his suffering and loss. Most of the treatment funds have been spent in the nearly 12 years since the award.
Wolfson's report said there was "no evidence in the record of the trust administration documents of any mismanagement of Theresa's estate, and the records on this matter are excellently maintained."
Crowd psychology experts say demonizing those with opposing views is common in such highly emotional confrontations as abortion rights and end-of-life decisions...........
The attacks on his character have become talk-show fodder and high-profile commentary, from the Wall Street Journal's editorial pages to website chat rooms and morning drive-time call-ins. It has also raised the emotional temperature among those standing vigil outside the hospice, where 60 to 80 protesters chant and sing in hopes that Terri Schiavo's life will be extended and where a handful of right-to-die advocates denounce the intrusions.
Some have come to the husband's defense, despite the overwhelming sentiment against him at the vigil.
"Michael has done everything possible for Terri over the years," said registered nurse Angie Olson, who doesn't know Schiavo personally but has worked with his colleagues.
"He was a respiratory therapist before she had the accident, and you can't tell me they never talked about life-and-death decisions. That is something he would have been dealing with every day."..........
But most of those sporadically standing vigil outside the hospice as courts considered conflicting legal motions described the man who is Terri Schiavo's legal guardian as well as her husband of 20 years as evil incarnate.
He is compared with Scott Peterson, convicted of killing his pregnant wife, to Nazi proponents of euthanizing the infirm, to Southern racists who sought to deprive fellow citizens of constitutional protections. Posters abound with provocative barbs such as, "Is Florida the Next Auschwich [sic]?" and "Michael, are you partying yet?"
Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, has used the spotlight to draw attention to claims that his sister suffered bone fractures and other abuses. A state court this month rejected a state agency's effort to investigate, saying the allegations had previously been found to be groundless.
The round-the-clock protest of legal rulings against further medical intervention has become, day by day and one appeal after another, an incubator for vilifying Michael Schiavo and for exploring conspiracy theories.
Some have come from the Schindlers themselves. In a petition filed Feb. 28 seeking a divorce for their daughter, they contended that her marriage to Michael Schiavo was "irretrievably broken" because he had committed adultery and undermined his wife's care and comfort.....
Conservative groups and disabled advocacy organizations have disseminated garish parodies of the husband they see as relishing his wife's potential demise.
"I, Michael Schiavo, Am Starving My Wife Today (and I feel good)," said the headline of a mock letter distributed by a group called the Hospice Patients Alliance.
In the St. Petersburg Times interview, Schiavo accused lawmakers of "pandering to the religious groups and the antiabortion groups and the Christian Coalition. They're doing this for the votes," he concluded.
A few of those gathered outside the hospice this week supported the beleaguered husband and his cause of allowing his wife to escape what they believe is a life of hopeless incapacity.
Said Tim Harmon, a Tampa hairstylist hoisting an "I support Michael Schiavo" poster in the hostile crowd: "I think they're desperate and that's why they are making all of these appalling accusations. If there was any truth to them, why didn't they mention it years ago?".
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
I only found the transcript.
Interview With Michael Schiavo
I won't post it. The last post uses up my long post quota, i think. I highly recommend reading the transcript before passing judgement on the guy. What the transcript fails to show is just how sunken, weary, and drained the guy looked and sounded. So no, I don't beleive a lot of the rhetoric regarding this guy.
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
|
|
[insert non-dated reference here] 10000+ posts
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 13,392 |
This whole story is a big sideshow. It's not real news.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
I disagree.
For all the issues discussed so far. It goes FAR beyond "sideshow" although the media certainly is barkering the sideshow aspects of this (infotainment at it's most sordid) rather than seriously delving the more serious political ramifications.
No one has commented yet on the fact that Terri Schiavo suffered this due to her bulimia. Now seeing as she was a person who had serious and severe body image issues, what would she think of the entire world seeing her in this state?
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Did she ever really have bulimia? Potassium defeiency is a somewhat common thing and is not always linked to eating disorders. Bad eating habits yes, but not always bulimia.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
This whole story is a big sideshow. It's not real news.
I agree that the media is going overboard on this, especially since the recent school shooting has barely been covered.
But like I said earlier some good can come of this for others. This could really get a lot of people to make living wills and things like that.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Quote:
rex said:
Did she ever really have bulimia? Potassium defeiency is a somewhat common thing and is not always linked to eating disorders. Bad eating habits yes, but not always bulimia.
From U.S.A. Today:
Schiavo case highlights eating disorders
again, i'll provide links or brief transcripts, but no full page articles. Anyone else is is free to though.
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
That definitely adds another layer to the story, but I'd say this is another reason why this story must be discussed. It points out the another hoorible thing eating disorders cause.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
It looks as if the cockaroaches are scurrying away at least. Quote:
After Congress' high-profile entry into the Terri Schiavo case, most lawmakers responded in a low-key manner to Thursday's Supreme Court decision not to intervene in the dispute, underscoring the delicate political nature of the controversy.
The measured reactions came as polls showed public disapproval of Washington's actions in the matter.
No one has mentioned that Michael Schivo could simply move Terri to Texas. In 1999, Bush while govenor of Teaxs, signed into law a bill that allowed hospitals to pull the plug on life support if the patient's family did not have the means to pay for continuing treatment. This week, that law was upheld and six-month-old Sun Hamilton died despite his family's wishes simply because they had no money.
So much for that culture of life.
Geeeezzzz. I can't take the hypocrisy!!
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Quote:
rex said:
That definitely adds another layer to the story, but I'd say this is another reason why this story must be discussed. It points out the another hoorible thing eating disorders cause.
Agreed. And if you read the Larry King transcript, she kept her bulimia a secret from her husband and her family.
Maybe at the very least, it would be an eye opener for young women out there. Still, since you were unawares, does that mean the media isn't reporting this much?
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
|
|
Who will I break next? 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 46,308 |
Its still taking up too much time, just not on the right things.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 232 |
Well...
that's certainly dissapointing. While bulimia, id imagine, is a complex issue, I'd think seeing Terri Schiavo's sad state being beamed ad naseum on TV right now, would be an incredible tool to discourage young people from starting the practice.
Which goes to show just how useless TV news is in actually INFORMING people.
"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." - George W. Bush State of the Union speech Jan 28, 2003
"mission accomplished" - George W. Bush May 2, 2003
It does not require a majority to prevail but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brushfires in peoples minds". Samuel Adams said that. Pretty deep for a guy that makes beer for a living - The Boondocks
"A conservative is one who admires radicals centuries after they're dead" - Leo C. Rosten
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920
500+ posts
|
|
500+ posts
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 920 |
Tom DeLay (audio) thinks the Terri Schiavo case is all about him and his legal troubles.
Quote:
One thing that God has brought to us is Terri Schiavo, to help elevate the visibility of what is going on in America," Mr. DeLay told a conference organized by the Family Research Council, a conservative Christian group. A recording of the event was provided by the advocacy organization Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
"This is exactly the issue that is going on in America, of attacks against the conservative movement, against me and against many others," Mr. DeLay said.
The point is, it’s, the other side has figured out how to win and defeat the conservative movement. And that is to go after people, personally charge them with frivolous charges
http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=503<br
A vast left wing conspiracy.
He's finally lost it...
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Since this has become a cause celebre for the religious right, i thought that the layers upon layers of hypocrisy of this case is astounding.
For instance, the issue of federalism and states rights. A Conservative beleif. Out the window.
If you are going to start talking federalism and the Constitution, then you have to also argue that federalism means that the U.S. government has no role in protecting someone's right to life or liberty.
Last time I looked, a major point of the Constitution was that someone had a right to "due process" before being put to death.
Think of an analogy to the writ of habeas corpus. Under habeas corpus we have federal court review of state court judgments all the time in the criminal law context.
The bill passed by Congress essentially treats the Florida judgment as a death sentence, warranting federal habeas review. As noted before, the court order to remove the feeding tube is an order to starve her to death.
Therefore, Schiavo is arguably being deprived of her life without due process of law, a violation of the 14th Amendment that Congress has the power to address.
Federalism is not simply about "states' rights." Conservatives support states' rights in areas that are not delegated to the federal government but they also support federal power in areas that are delegated.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
I agree with Rex. I'd think Christians would want to free her soul from that prison of a body. A body that is capable of only the most rudimentary form of "life".
By that argument, Christian doctors shouldn't treat people, in order to get them to heaven faster.
By that argument, Christian firefighters shouldn't pull people out of burning buildings.
Etc.
The thing that bothers me about this case more than anything else is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of the "right to die" crowd of what is happening here.
This isn't "pulling the plug," like in a bad movie, where the doctor is going to walk up to a bank of beeping machines, flick a switch and then, after 30 seconds of fast beeping, Terri flatlines. This is starving a human being to death.
I wouldn't wish that death, starvation, on the deadliest terrorist or the most unrepentant child killer. But here we are talking about doing it to an innocent woman.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
|
|
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:Michael Schiavo has become the target of accusations that ...he wants her to die so he can marry a woman with whom he has lived for the last few years and fathered two children.
Michael Schiavo has vehemently denied the accusations of abuse, greed and heartlessness in interviews and to investigators, and an independent report to Gov. Jeb Bush and the judicial system two years ago said "the evidence is incontrovertible that he gave his heart and soul to her treatment and care."...
The attacks on his character have become talk-show fodder and high-profile commentary, from the Wall Street Journal's editorial
Having read the Wall St. Journal editorial, I thought it was pretty fair. It went to pains to point out that Schiavo's taking up with another woman was maybe justified emotionally:
It would require a heroic degree of self-sacrifice for a man to forgo love and sex in order to remain faithful to an incapacitated wife, and it would be unreasonable to hold an ordinary man to a heroic standard.
But it is equally unreasonable to let Mr. Schiavo have it both ways. If he wishes to assert his marital authority to do his wife in, the least society can expect in return is that he refrain from making a mockery of his marital obligations.
As the Journal notes, Schiavo is, to some extent, trying to have it both ways. He is trying to claim his full status and rights as Terri's husband while ignoring the responsibilty of a husband not to get involved with another woman.
At the very least, I can see what it would make people uncomfortable.
Quote:
Crowd psychology experts say demonizing those with opposing views is common in such highly emotional confrontations as abortion rights and end-of-life decisions...........
I think there's plenty of that going on with both sides here, when you start calling people who don't agree with letting her die "religious nuts."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
I am in agreement with G-Man, that Michael Shiavo is trying to have it both ways. He cannot assert a dedication to follow her wishes as her husband while taking up with another woman (one can argue, I presume, that Terri would also not want Michael involved with another woman while the Shiavos are married).
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
I agree with Rex. I'd think Christians would want to free her soul from that prison of a body. A body that is capable of only the most rudimentary form of "life".
Yea, fortunately there aren't many Christians out there "freeing people's souls from thier bodily prisons."
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
I am in agreement with G-Man, that Michael Shiavo is trying to have it both ways. He cannot assert a dedication to follow her wishes as her husband while taking up with another woman (one can argue, I presume, that Terri would also not want Michael involved with another woman while the Shiavos are married).
That's something that's puzzled me. Also if he was so concerned with not prolonging her suffering why did he prolong it just long enough to win a million doller settlement?
G-Man makes another good point in that what's being decided here isn't allowing someone to die legally if that were the case I for one wouldn't be too worked up about it, but it's PREVENTING this womans parrents from feeding her.
Quote:
I wouldn't wish that death, starvation, on the deadliest terrorist or the most unrepentant child killer.
I don't know that I would be all that shaken up if I leaned Ossama wasn't getting enough food, but I can think of one group that would go ape shite if we captured him and didn't feed him.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I don't know that I would be all that shaken up if I leaned Ossama wasn't getting enough food, but I can think of one group that would go ape shite if we captured him and didn't feed him.
Perhaps not if he were in PVS.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Here's what I've been mulling over...
Michael Shiavo's arguing that Terri told him she would not want to live this way. As her husband he has standing to decide to honor what he claims are her wishes (regardless, we cannot prove she ever contradicted her statement of those wishes). As I see it, it is humanly possible for Shiavo to assert AND THINK in his heart of hearts that he's doing what Terri would have wanted...
-w.r.t. her living in a PVS.
and
-w.r.t. her wanting him not to put his life on hold for her (re: the woman with whom he's sired children).
These are not mutually exclusive points, as I see them (though there is no doubt in the Court of Public Opinion that they cast grave doubt over Shiavo's behavior and make it look as though he wants to get Terri out of the way, get on with his life, and collect whatever settlement money remains that hasn't been spent on attorneys fees).
I would also have thought over the years that if Terri were truly in a state of minimized consciousness rather than a state of PVS that Terri's parents would have sought out doctors who would have confirmed this. Have they? If they have and cannot get a doctor to attest to a diagnosis other than PVS...well, I'm sorry. If the best medical standards can't come away with anything other than PVS, what are you going to do?
As a parent, my heart breaks for the Schindlers. This isn't how they want to see their daughter, but over the years, their caring for her is how they've managed to continue their relationship with her. Were I in their place, I would want heaven and earth to be moved to prolong the life of either of my girls. And yes, I'd be begging Michael to let me have her to continue her care.
This is a heart-breaking sitaution, yet I do honestly see both sides.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 207
200+ posts
|
|
200+ posts
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 207 |
What's the point of reinserting the feeding tube if she has bulimia? She's just gonna throw it up first chance she gets.
Take it from me, I LOVE you! 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091
The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
|
|
The Once, and Future Cunt 15000+ posts
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 23,091 |
Quote:
Pit Pat said:
What's the point of reinserting the feeding tube if she has bulimia? She's just gonna throw it up first chance she gets.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
What I found rather ironic is the fact that the conservatives are now desperate to find an "activist" judge?
Shhhhhhhhh, don't remind anyone that the Conservative Right's real goal is to have Government work just the way they want it when they want it. Shh, keep it on the QT.
Last edited by Jim Jackson; 2005-03-25 6:42 PM.
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030
6000+ posts
|
|
6000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 7,030 |
Quote:
PaulWellr said:
I agree with Rex. I'd think Christians would want to free her soul from that prison of a body. A body that is capable of only the most rudimentary form of "life".
USAToday had an article about that very point.
___________________
TERRI SCHIAVO: Believe there's something more
By CHARLES E. BOUCHARD
For Christians, the Easter season is an ironic mix. The stark solemnity of
Good Friday and its bare wooden cross contrast with the light, music and
full-throated "Alleluia" of Easter Sunday. Like no other season of the
year, it reminds us of both the pain of human existence and its glorious
possibility.
Easter may be a Christian feast, but it is also a reflection of the human
condition. It expresses the human longing for a full view of the spiritual
fulfillment we usually only glimpse.
Generations of Catholics who studied the Baltimore Catechism recall
question No. 6: "Why did God make me?" The answer, as every grade-school
child knew: "To know Him, Love Him and serve Him in this world, and to be
happy with Him forever in the next." This makes two important points:
[<B>]To know, love and serve in this world.[</B>][<I>] [</I>]The first
point is that physical life is the means by which we know and love God (and
our neighbor). This life is lived out in relationship with those we love.
In other words, our ability to relate with others is central to the purpose
of life.
[<B>]And be happy in the next.[</B>][<I>] [</I>]The second point is that,
as important as this physical life is, it's not the ultimate reason for
which we were created. Christians believe that in the last analysis, we
were created to be with God. Our physical lives are a prelude, a confused
and clumsy dress rehearsal, a reception that prepares us for the ultimate
banquet. This means that death is not to be feared as the end, but rather
embraced as the final step in a process of life.
For most of us, the transition from this life to the next will be
relatively peaceful and quick. We used to call this "a happy death," a
moment of equanimity when we knew we had completed our earthly tasks and
were now about to see them brought to perfection. For others, that passage
is painful, traumatic and prolonged. This is especially true when we - or
those around us - refuse to acknowledge the real purpose of life and
instead cling desperately to physical life as though there were nothing
else.
In his book "The Troubled Dream of Life: In Search of Peaceful Death,"
ethicist Daniel Callahan says there is an alternative view: "our capacity
to learn how to accept what life puts before us, to be open to that which
we cannot control, and to embrace the virtues of courage and endurance in
the face of evil." The problem with a life dedicated to control and fear,
he says, "is that no degree of vigilance can ever be sufficient to assure
its success."
Is it possible that removal of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube is euthanasia?
Yes, but it is more likely that it is the legitimate withdrawal of a
medical intervention that no longer serves her spiritual or medical good.
Is it possible that Congress acted in her best interests when it permitted
yet another legal review - this time, in the federal courts - of the case?
Yes, but it is more likely that they are really fighting another battle or,
worse, just trying to get re-elected.
Is it possible that Schiavo would want to be maintained in this medical and
spiritual limbo for more than 15 years? Yes, but it is likely that as a
Christian she would forgo the very limited benefits of tube feeding and
embrace God's promise of eternal life with hope.
For Christians, Easter is an invitation to walk through death, to embrace
it, to meditate upon it and then, finally, to emerge on the other side,
triumphant. Christian or not, all of us must take the same journey, over
and over again. We must feel the real pain of human existence, indulge the
hope of consolation and dare to believe there is something more. My hope is
that Terri Schiavo, her family and her friends will make that journey, too.
[<B>]Fr. Charles E. Bouchard, a Catholic Dominican friar, is president and
associate professor of moral theology at Aquinas Institute of Theology in
St. Louis.[</B>]
We all wear a green carnation.
|
|
|
|
|
