RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Pope Said Conscious, in Grave Condition

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Pig Iron said:
ya know, the prophecy of fatima says that when John Paul II dies there will be a new pope that dies really quickly and then the next will be the whore of babylon... it's true...

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ROME — Pope John Paul II's blood infection is a catastrophic condition for even the fittest people, doctors said Friday.

Septic shock results when bacteria infect the blood vessels, leading to a weakening of the vessels and a catastrophic loss of blood pressure. That puts an ever increasing burden on the heart as it tries to compensate and also harms other organs.

John Paul suffered blood poisoning when a urinary tract infection spread to his bloodstream Thursday afternoon.

The Vatican announced a further deterioration in the 84-year-old pontiff's condition, saying he had slipped into heart and kidney failure, with a further drop in blood pressure and shallow breathing.

"The shallow breathing is totally consistent with severe failure of the blood vessels to provide blood to all the key organs," Dr. Peter Salgo, associate director of the intensive care unit at New York Presbyterian/Columbia University Medical Center, told The Associated Press in a telephone interview.

Experts were divided over whether the decision to keep John Paul at the Vatican indicated doctors had given up on him recovering.

"The chances of an elderly person in this condition with septic shock surviving 24 to 48 hours are slim — about 10-20 percent, but that would be in an intensive care unit with very aggressive treatment," said Dr. Gianni Angelini, a professor of cardiac surgery at Bristol University in England.

"If he is not going back to the hospital, they must realize there's not much point in doing anything more heroic. It indicates they are preparing for him to die peacefully at the Vatican," Angelini said.

However, Dr. Reed Phillips, senior director of Hospice Care Network in New York, said that while the pope's condition was certainly grave, many of the key treatments could be duplicated at the Vatican.

"Not taking him to the hospital is not an indication that they are giving up on him," Phillips said.

Unless blood pressure is restored quickly, the heart and other major organs start failing because of lack of oxygen, said Dr. Peter Weissberg, medical director of the British Heart Foundation.

"If you've got somebody who is otherwise fit and able — and you can get antibiotics into them to kill off the bacteria and you can support their circulation with drugs — then you may get them over it," he said.

However, for a frail and elderly patient like the pope, the chances of dying from septic shock are 80 percent to 90 percent, he said.

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"We are well aware that when the tent that houses us on Earth is folded up, there is a house for us from God, not made by human hands but everlasting, in the heavens…. In this present tent, we groan under the burden, not that we want to be stripped of our covering, but because we want to be covered with a second garment on top, so that what is mortal in us may be swallowed up by life. It is God who designed us for this very purpose, and he has given us the Spirit as a pledge."

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unrestrained id said:
Because there is no Christian whose dying is so closely watched as the pope's, there is no Christian better placed to teach again the ancient lesson that earthly life is not to be clung to.

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Pariah said:

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unrestrained id said:
Because there is no Christian whose dying is so closely watched as the pope's, there is no Christian better placed to teach again the ancient lesson that earthly life is not to be clung to.

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Bull. And. Shit.

By Catholic standards, life is to be clung to. Giving up on life no matter how far down the line you are is not an option. If you must suffer by struggling claw and tooth to stay in this world until your perseverance becomes insignificant in the face of imminent death, then so be it. Sacrifice is what this religion's about.

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unrestrained id said:

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rex said:
He will not last much longer. If I remember correctly, this is what killed christopher reeve.
Its also pretty common among the elderly and bedridden.

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Pig Iron said:
ya know, the prophecy of fatima says that when John Paul II dies there will be a new pope that dies really quickly and then the next will be the whore of babylon... it's true...

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Paul Mandral said:

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Pig Iron said:
ya know, the prophecy of fatima says that when John Paul II dies there will be a new pope that dies really quickly and then the next will be the whore of babylon... it's true...

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Paul Mandral said:

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Paul Mandral said:

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Pig Iron said:
ya know, the prophecy of fatima says that when John Paul II dies there will be a new pope that dies really quickly and then the next will be the whore of babylon... it's true...

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VATICAN CITY - Pope John Paul II, who helped topple communism in Europe and left a deeply conservative stamp on the church that he led for 26 years, died Saturday night in his Vatican apartment, ending a long public struggle against debilitating illness. He was 84.

"We all feel like orphans this evening," Undersecretary of State Archbishop Leonardo Sandri told the crowd of 70,000 that gathered in St. Peter's Square below the pope's still-lighted apartment windows.

In the massive piazza that stretches from St. Peter's Basilica, the assembled flock fell into a stunned silence before some people broke into applause — an Italian tradition in which mourners often clap for important figures. Others wept. Still others recited the rosary. A seminarian slowly waved a large red and white Polish flag draped with black bunting for the Polish-born pontiff, the most-traveled pope in history.

At one point, prelates asked those in the square to stay silent so they might "accompany the pope in his first steps into heaven."

But as the Vatican bells tolled in mourning, a group of young people sang, "Alleluia, he will rise again." One strummed a guitar, and other pilgrims joined in singing the "Ave Maria."

"The angels welcome you," Vatican TV said after papal spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls announced the death of the pope, who had for years suffered from Parkinson's disease and came down with fever and infections in recent weeks.

In contrast to the church's ancient traditions, Navarro-Valls announced the death to journalists in the most modern of communication forms, an e-mail that said: "The Holy Father died this evening at 9:37 p.m. in his private apartment." The spokesman said church officials now would be following instructions that John Paul had written for them on Feb. 22, 1996. A precise cause of death was not given.

In the last two days of the pope's life, after it had become clear he would not recover, the tide of humanity near the vatican had ebbed and flowed, swelling again Saturday night.

"He was a marvelous man. Now he's no longer suffering," Concetta Sposato, a pilgrim who heard the pope had died as she was on her way to St. Peter's to pray, said tearfully.

"My father died last year. For me, it feels the same," said Elisabetta Pomacalca, a 25-year-old Peruvian who lives in Rome.

"I'm Polish. For us, he was a father," said pilgrim Beata Sowa.

A Mass was scheduled for St. Peter's Square for 10:30 a.m. (4:30 a.m. EDT) Sunday. The pope's body was expected to be taken to the basilica no earlier than Monday afternoon, the Vatican said.

It said the College of Cardinals — the red-robed "princes" of the Roman Catholic Church — would meet at 10 a.m. (4 a.m. EDT) Monday in a pre-conclave session. They were expected to set a funeral date, which the Vatican said probably would be between Wednesday and Friday.

Karol Joseph Wojtyla was a robust 58 when the last papal conclave stunned the world and elected the cardinal from Krakow, the first non-Italian pope in 455 years.

In his later years, John Paul was the picture of frailty. In addition to Parkinson's, he survived a 1981 assassination attempt, when a Turkish gunman shot him in the abdomen, and had hip and knee ailments. His anguished struggle with failing health became a symbol of aging and, in the end, death with dignity.

People in John Paul II's hometown in Wadowice, Poland, fell to their knees and wept as the news reached them at the end of a special Mass in the church where he worshipped as a boy.

Church bells rang out after the announcement, but it took several minutes for people inside the packed church to find out as they continued their vigil into a second night.

Then the parish priest, the Rev. Jakub Gil, came to the front as the last hymn faded away. "His life has come to an end. Our great countryman has died," he said. People inside the church and standing outside fell to their knees.

John Paul's passing set in motion centuries of tradition that mark the death of the leader of the world's 1.2 billion Roman Catholics, whom he led into the faith's third millennium.

The Vatican chamberlain formally verified the death and destroyed the symbols of the pope's authority: his fisherman's ring and dies used to make lead seals for apostolic letters.

The Vatican did not say if the chamberlain followed the other ancient practice of verifying death by calling the pope's name three times and tapping his forehead three times with a silver hammer.

The Vatican has declined to say whether John Paul left instructions for his funeral or burial. Most popes in recent centuries have asked to be buried in the crypts below St. Peter's Basilica, but some have suggested the first Polish-born pope might have chosen to be laid to rest in his native country.

As John Paul's death neared, members of the College of Cardinals were already headed toward the Vatican to prepare for the secret duty of locking themselves in the Sistine Chapel to elect the next pope. Tradition calls for the process to begin within 20 days of death.

Among possible successors are German Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger — one of the pope's closest aides and the Vatican's doctrinal watchdog. Others mentioned include Brazilian Cardinal Claudio Hummes, Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras, Cardinal Francis Arinze, a Vatican-based Nigerian, Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria and Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Italy.

In Washington, President Bush mourned the loss of "a good and faithful servant of God (who) has been called home" and said the pontiff "launched a democratic revolution that swept Eastern Europe and changed the course of history."

A fierce enemy of communism, John Paul set off the sparks that helped bring down communism in Poland, from where a virtual revolution spread across the Soviet bloc. No less an authority than former Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev said much of the credit went to John Paul.

But his Polish roots also nourished a doctrinal conservatism. He reaffirmed the church's ban on artificial birth control and denounced in vitro fertilization, abortion, euthanasia, divorce, sex outside marriage, homosexual relations and same-sex unions.

He demanded celibacy of Roman Catholic priests and said yet again that the priesthood was not open to women. He did give in to the demands of liberal Catholics to allow altar girls.

A man who had lived under both the Nazis and the Soviets, he loathed totalitarianism, which he called "substitute religion." As pope, he helped foster Poland's Solidarity movement and bring down Communism. Once it was vanquished, he decried capitalist callousness.

During World War II, he appeared on a Nazi blacklist in 1944 for his activities in a Christian democratic underground in Poland. B'nai B'rith and other organizations testified that he helped Jews find refuge from the Nazis.

While the pope championed better relations with Jews — Christianity's "older brothers," as he put it — the Vatican formally recognized Israel in 1993. He also met with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and urged the Holy Land's warring neighbors to reconcile.

John Paul was intent on improving relations with Muslims. On a trip to Damascus, Syria, in May 2001, he became the first pope to step into a mosque.

The 264th pope also battled what he called a "culture of death" in modern society. It made him a hero to those who saw him as their rock in a degenerating world, and a foe to those who felt he was holding back social enlightenment.

"The church cannot be an association of freethinkers," John Paul said.

However, a sex abuse scandal among clergy plunged his church into moral crisis. He summoned U.S. cardinals to the Vatican and told them: "The abuse which has caused this crisis is by every standard wrong and rightly considered a crime by society; it is also an appalling sin in the eyes of God." Critics accused the pope of not acting swiftly enough.

Other critics said that while the pope championed the world's poor, he was not consistent when he rebuked Latin American priests who sought to involve the church politically through the doctrine of "liberation theology."

John Paul's health declined rapidly after he suffered heart and kidney failure after he was hospitalized twice in as many months. Just two hours before announcing his death, the Vatican had said he was in "very serious" condition, although he was responding to aides.

After his passing, Vatican, Italian and European Union flags were lowered to half-staff. In Washington, flags over the White House also were lowered.

The pope's final public appearance was Wednesday when, looking gaunt and unable to speak, he briefly appeared at his window.

His health sharply deteriorated the next day after he suffered a urinary tract infection.

In his last medical statement Saturday, Navarro-Valls said John Paul was not in a coma and opened his eyes when spoken to. But he added: "Since dawn this morning, there have been first signs that consciousness is being affected."

"Sometimes it seems as if he were resting with his eyes closed, but when you speak to him he opens his eyes," Navarro-Valls said.

Navarro-Valls said the pope was still speaking late Friday but did not take part when Mass was celebrated in his presence Saturday morning.

He said aides had told the pope that thousands of young people were in St. Peter's Square on Friday evening. Navarro-Valls said the pope appeared to be referring to them when he seemed to say: "'I have looked for you. Now you have come to me. And I thank you.'"

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Associated Press reporters Nicole Winfield, Frances D'Emilio, William J. Kole and Brian Murphy in Rome contributed to this report.