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SPEAKING FREELY Hobbesian hell in the making By Gaurang Bhatt Quote:
There is surely a serious problem brewing in the world's need for an affordable and reliable supply of energy. Ever since Winston Churchill and Gertrude Stein drew a map of the current Iraq, supposedly on a breakfast napkin, to Franklin D Roosevelt's historic meeting and agreement with King Ibn Saud on an American ship, the policies of the British and their successor hegemon, America, have been based on ensuring reliable access to cheap oil to fuel economic progress.
The failed American policy of making the Shah of Iran the US's linchpin and the withdrawal from Saudi Arabia, due to Osama bin Laden's jihad, led to the foolish misadventure of the conquest and occupation of Iraq and the ongoing disaster. The occupation is an unmitigated catastrophe destined for a withdrawal, with cutting of losses due to the fickle attention span and intolerance for casualties by the American public. They lack the intellectual capacity or insight to understand any complexity.
A recent article by Naomi Klein in reference to the Abu Ghraib atrocities evaluated in parallel to the French experience in Algiers, illuminates the problem. The French general taxed with the atrocities of the Battle of Algiers by a group of reporters put the quintessential question to them, whether they believed, like he, and the then-government did, that they wished to continue the occupation and exploitation of Algeria. If they did, then the end would justify the means and the moral quibbling was idle rhetoric because in real life the old adage stood on its head and the end always justified the means.
An honest and pragmatic book by Central Intelligence Agency analyst "Anonymous" applauds bin Laden's genius and lays out a ruthless plan of combating it. The grievances of Muslims are genuine, despite their unacceptable and dastardly means to redress them. The American support of tyrannical and corrupt kleptocracies in the Muslim world and America's connivance and tacit support of Israeli tyranny and occupation of Palestinian lands is a raging fire that cannot be extinguished, or even contained, by public relations disinformation or President George W Bush inviting Muslim clerics for a post-Id Iftar (breaking of the fast) dinner and proclaiming Islam a religion of peace.
Islam has never been a religion of peace. Mohammed, unlike any other prior prophet or future one, resorted to arms as a means to spread his doctrine. His massacre of dissenting innocent Jews and his deathbed statement that there should be no other religion in Arabia contrasts sharply with Christ's statement that "there are many paths to my father's mansion". Not that Christianity, as practiced by the West, has been a benign force. It was used to justify slavery and colonial exploitation without mercy, even for fellow Christians, in the murderous mayhem of the Crusaders toward fellow Christians who were Orthodox in the Byzantine, and president William McKinley toward Filipinos.
The truth is that the battlelines have been drawn between the two follies, Christianity and Islam, both with their falsely arrogant certitudes about a single god who doesn't exist. Unlike the Crusades and then-prevalent blind faith that led gullible and ignorant masses to death by false promise of the rewards of an eternal heaven, for a pecuniary benefit by a corrupt Pope, the current battle is for the survival and supremacy of the West.
For Islam, devoid of a reformation and renaissance, the reasons for this Armageddon are the same. It is a backward-looking religion with a nostalgia for old glory, just like current-day Britain. It is incapable of reform or democracy, because the true believers, unlike the present-day Jews, Christians and Hindus (except for a minority), who understand that there never was and never will be a red telephone by which God conveys a direct voiced message to human beings, still fervently believe that their scriptures are the word of God and thus incontestable and immune to modification or multiple interpretations.
The large majority of Muslims believes that the Koran is the word of God. Only ignorant America comes close to the Muslims in this inane stupidity, proven by the growing numbers of evangelists and the exploitation of the American tax code by rich fanatics to establish think-tanks to propagate their unholy agenda to the detriment of the nation. These are not real think-tanks to promote intelligent debate for the public good, but Trojan Horses and tax-sheltered propaganda machines to subvert public good and legislate biased laws to promote the vested interests of rich and powerful minorities and a funding resource to brainwash the naive youth.
Thus, the very concept of secular laws and the will of the majority is an unacceptable heresy to believing Muslims, and a mere loophole to be bypassed by Christian fanatics and rich minorities. What is worse is that dissident intellectuals or humanists become branded as apostates, who can be justifiably terminated by blessed sanction of zealot mullahs and their blind, equally zealous, followers in Muslim countries and pariah liberals in the evangelistic American state.
This is not a milieu for the flourishing of a democratic culture. The European Union, though more benignly inclined toward its indigenous population, has revolted against its prior folly of liberal asylum and immigration policies, which had resulted in large North African, Turkish and South Asian Muslim minorities, unable to assimilate and unwilling to acquire marketable skills, like the Chinese or Hindu Indians.
There is unquestioned racism there, as opposed to America, which has been more inclusive by concentrating its adverse prejudice selectively toward blacks. Nevertheless, the falling birthrates and the coming demographic meltdown dictate the need for immigration, contrary to the new racist attitudes in even formerly liberal countries like the Netherlands and Denmark. The recent rejection of the EU constitution in France and the Netherlands was dictated by the unjustified fear of uncontrolled alien Muslim immigration from Turkey and the justified fears of an economic race to the bottom, that the neo-liberal, capitalistic American policies of globalization destine, contrary to the prescient analysis of the great German economist Friedrich List.
China, with a nationalistic agenda, has profited handsomely from cheap wages and the forced necessity of providing employment to its migrating masses, blind to their exploitation. It is in character with a long history of civilization of the Mandarins, by the Mandarins and for the Mandarins, just like much of the history of India with regard to the Brahmins.
Politics has always been and will always remain a fertile field for the intellectually inept and morally bankrupt manipulators of the blindness, ignorance and mercurial proclivities of the foolish masses. Governments ranging from so-called democratic America and Europe to the so-called communist China are no different. The newest trend is supplanting democracy by oligarchy and Francis Fukuyama's end of history is a folly of blind misperception. The much-maligned misuse of power by Russia's Vladimir Putin, though for the evil purpose of consolidating his illegitimate power, is more beneficial in the long run to the state and the common man, because it is contrary to the currently fashionable false obsessive fetish of unregulated free enterprise and markets, which even the father of capitalism, Adam Smith, warned against as a conspiracy to defraud the general public.
It is only a matter of brief time before the profligate mismanagement of the beholden-to-vested-interests American leaders' disastrous policies leads to a substantial downsizing of the American dream and future, and in response for an incensed American public to acquiesce in and even applaud aggressive and exploitative policies to use the country's unrivaled and devastating military might to sustain their extravagant lifestyle. Thus the quest for weapons of mass destruction by Israel, India, Iran, North Korea and even Pakistan are not paranoid aberrations, but necessities based on reality. Within the next decade, when push comes to shove and the high price of oil and natural gas threatens the economic security of powerful nations, there will be no resistance to and general acceptance of the use of overwhelming force to dictate to the weaker idiot nations the terms of selling their essential resources.
The unfortunate truth is that energy resources are primarily in lands with Muslim majorities and rule. Contrary to Samuel P Huntington's misconception of the clash of civilizations, it is the crucial necessity for survival and the need for cheap and reliable energy resources that sets up a scenario for a protracted devastating war between Christian developed nations and the resource-rich Islamic ones.
China, cursed and blessed by a thoroughly self-enriching leadership not devoid of foresight and redeemed by a vision of a future to reclaim its nostalgic dream of its glorious past, and Russia with its rich resources and landmass, with a history of sacrifice, are best equipped to weather the storm in the long run.
The future for India with its self-serving leaders and even more ignorant and illiterate masses is obscure. As for America and Europe, it is uncertain, because times have changed from the old colonial days and a resurgent Russia and China are unlikely to be fooled again, as they were in 1990 and the 19th century respectively.
For the world as a whole it is a reversion to the law of the jungle and the merciless and amoral battle for survival, which evolution has waged over eons for individuals and species, bringing all humanity to the Hobbesian hell, where life is nasty, brutish and short. The tragedy is that the brief history of a relatively civilized era of human history is coming to an end, and we are all destined to revert to survival in the evolutionary jungle, where power and survival are dependent on the barrel of one's gun.
Gaurang Bhatt, a former professor, is a writer on diverse topics ranging from the economy to immigration and international relations.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
DEATH TO AMERICA!
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
rex said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
DEATH TO AMERICA!
That's what I thought he said, in a very wordy sort of way.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
rex said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
DEATH TO AMERICA!
That's what I thought he said, in a very wordy sort of way.
Hey, I didn't say I agreed with him on everything. I think he believes that the people who run the world are very Machiavellian in their thinking. That's not such an out-there perspective. Besides, I'm in a bomb throwing kind of mood today.
BTW I've never said Death to America.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
PenWing said:
Quote:
rex said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
DEATH TO AMERICA!
That's what I thought he said, in a very wordy sort of way.
Death to America.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Come on you big pussy. Tell me where he's wrong.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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I don't waste time correcting extremist propoganda. you and the others like you will not listen, so it doesn't matter.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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I'm interested in what you have to say, not because I have something against you, but because I would love to hear someone else's actual views on the subject, rather than "death to america." Also, for the record, calling rex a big pussy was a bit out of line. He is ridiculed and called an ass, yet you ask his opinion. It reeks of a sick joke.
"Ah good. Now I'm on the internet clearly saying I like tranny cleavage. This shouldn't get me harassed at all." -- Lothar of the Hill People
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Oh fuck!
Pariah hasn't appeared, called you "whomod", accused you of "spamming" the boards and then immediately spontaneouly combusted yet.
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"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way." George W. Bush — Washington, D.C., April 28, 2005
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
"I don't think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees." - George W. Bush
I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
Barbara Bush: It's Good Enough for the Poor
To comfort the powerless and make the powerful uncomfortable.
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Quote:
rex said:
you and the others like you will not listen
well, y'know, neither will you people!
 Racks be to MisterJLA
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If someone presents a valid point, I will listen. Its not my fault no one does that anymore.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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Quote:
rex said:
If someone presents a valid point, I will listen. Its not my fault no one does that anymore.
Quote:
An honest and pragmatic book by Central Intelligence Agency analyst "Anonymous" applauds bin Laden's genius and lays out a ruthless plan of combating it. The grievances of Muslims are genuine, despite their unacceptable and dastardly means to redress them. The American support of tyrannical and corrupt kleptocracies in the Muslim world and America's connivance and tacit support of Israeli tyranny and occupation of Palestinian lands is a raging fire that cannot be extinguished, or even contained, by public relations disinformation or President George W Bush inviting Muslim clerics for a post-Id Iftar (breaking of the fast) dinner and proclaiming Islam a religion of peace.
So what do you disagree with, Rex?
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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I'm not gonna read all that. somebody give me some Cliffs Notes: preferably less wordy than the article, and more wordy than "Death to America!"
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Quote:
rex said:
Its funny how g-man hasn't moved any of my posts in this thread, but when I prove him to be wrong, my posts get moved.
Quote:
the G-man said:
No, when your posts are off topic they get moved.
Or, in this case, edited.
For a guy who's main role on this forum these days seems to be to whine about "flame wars," you seem hell bent on insulting and going off topic whenever it suits you.
As for why I waited this long to deal with your latest antics, I'd hope giving you a little more latitude again might allow you to demonstrate some new maturity. Sadly, you didn't. Instead its the same old personal attacks and off topic BS
Last edited by the G-man; 2005-07-03 9:04 PM.
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The muslims do have genuine grievances with America and its actions in the regions. Their actions are horrible, but us bombing them will only lead to more violence from their side.
The only way to stop the cycle of violence is to get to the root of the problem and fix it.
Bow ties are coool.
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As a rule of thumb, you can't reason with Arabs. They preach the end of Christianity and Judaism and won't rest until it happens.
They have greivances, but I don't know how genuine they are. They hated us just as much when Clinton was President for 8 years so it's not fair to blame Bush. What greivances?.....that we are allies with Israel? If we weren't one or the other race would be obliterated by now. We have maintained a peace (however fragile) in that region since 1948......they want to blame someone blame themselves.....fucking ignorant assholes were offered a Palestinian state back then by the British.....they were just too stupid to accept. That's our fault? Clinton mediates Peace and sweetheart deal for the Arabs......Arafat continues the terrorism secretlt.......that's our fault?....
Throughout history the only people the Arabs have to blame for their problems is themselves. I hope someday we can all live in peace.....cause if not the only other alternative is to turn the Middle East into a Club (Ah)Med!
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Quote:
PJP said:
As a rule of thumb, you can't reason with Arabs.
They're not Klingons.
Quote:
They have greivances, but I don't know how genuine they are. They hated us just as much when Clinton was President for 8 years so it's not fair to blame Bush. What greivances?.....that we are allies with Israel? If we weren't one or the other race would be obliterated by now. We have maintained a peace (however fragile) in that region since 1948......they want to blame someone blame themselves.....fucking ignorant assholes were offered a Palestinian state back then by the British.....they were just too stupid to accept. That's our fault? Clinton mediates Peace and sweetheart deal for the Arabs......Arafat continues the terrorism secretlt.......that's our fault?....
It goes back to the 1940's-1950's. I know Iran hates us because:
The British were buying their oil, but imposing too many tarrifs (sp?)
We didn't really give a shit.
The corrupt Sha was on his way out, and a better government was gaining power.
The Iranians cut a deal with the Russians to sell Oil without as many tarrifs.
We said "Russia? They're communist!?" And the CIA overthrew the new government, maintained the corrupt Sha, and then turned a blind eye to the people's suffering.
Fast forward to the 1980's, the Ayitola comes to power as part of a movement trying to overthrow the Sha we were backing. They saw us as being just as bad as he was.
(this comes from a history channel documentary I saw on the history of the CIA).
Quote:
Throughout history the only people the Arabs have to blame for their problems is themselves.
Of course. The few Muslim friends I've had all agree that the religion itself is not violent, but its the government that run the Islamic countries. Muslim countries with better governments (Egypt) are very progressive and modern and happy and blah blah blah. Its only the bad ones you hear about where women are oppressed.
Quote:
I hope someday we can all live in peace.....cause if not the only other alternative is to turn the Middle East into a Club (Ah)Med!
But that's the problem. You can't make peace through bombing people...that's what terrorists do.
All that we've done in Iraq is ensured that a good deal of the children of the people we killed will grow up to become terrorists themselves.
The best option would've been for Bush's daddy to have actually maintained his support of the rebel factions in the 1990's. They would've been Iraqis overthrowing Sadam, not foreign invaders.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
PJP said:
As a rule of thumb, you can't reason with Arabs.
They're not Klingons.
Quote:
They have greivances, but I don't know how genuine they are. They hated us just as much when Clinton was President for 8 years so it's not fair to blame Bush. What greivances?.....that we are allies with Israel? If we weren't one or the other race would be obliterated by now. We have maintained a peace (however fragile) in that region since 1948......they want to blame someone blame themselves.....fucking ignorant assholes were offered a Palestinian state back then by the British.....they were just too stupid to accept. That's our fault? Clinton mediates Peace and sweetheart deal for the Arabs......Arafat continues the terrorism secretlt.......that's our fault?....
It goes back to the 1940's-1950's. I know Iran hates us because:
The British were buying their oil, but imposing too many tarrifs (sp?)
We didn't really give a shit.
The corrupt Sha was on his way out, and a better government was gaining power.
The Iranians cut a deal with the Russians to sell Oil without as many tarrifs.
We said "Russia? They're communist!?" And the CIA overthrew the new government, maintained the corrupt Sha, and then turned a blind eye to the people's suffering.
Fast forward to the 1980's, the Ayitola comes to power as part of a movement trying to overthrow the Sha we were backing. They saw us as being just as bad as he was.
(this comes from a history channel documentary I saw on the history of the CIA).
Quote:
Throughout history the only people the Arabs have to blame for their problems is themselves.
Of course. The few Muslim friends I've had all agree that the religion itself is not violent, but its the government that run the Islamic countries. Muslim countries with better governments (Egypt) are very progressive and modern and happy and blah blah blah. Its only the bad ones you hear about where women are oppressed.
Quote:
I hope someday we can all live in peace.....cause if not the only other alternative is to turn the Middle East into a Club (Ah)Med!
But that's the problem. You can't make peace through bombing people...that's what terrorists do.
All that we've done in Iraq is ensured that a good deal of the children of the people we killed will grow up to become terrorists themselves.
The best option would've been for Bush's daddy to have actually maintained his support of the rebel factions in the 1990's. They would've been Iraqis overthrowing Sadam, not foreign invaders.
I agree with your last point. No one will ever know if the rebels would have overthrown Saddam.....but we should have at least tried to help them. It would have avoided alot of the problems that have arisen because of it.
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Quote:
unrestrained id said:
Oh fuck!
Pariah hasn't appeared, called you "whomod", accused you of "spamming" the boards and then immediately spontaneouly combusted yet.
MagicJay isn't Whomod silly.
He lives in San Fransico. You live in Los Angeles.
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Quote:
It goes back to the 1940's-1950's. I know Iran hates us because:
The British were buying their oil, but imposing too many tarrifs (sp?)
We didn't really give a shit.
The corrupt Sha was on his way out, and a better government was gaining power.
The Iranians cut a deal with the Russians to sell Oil without as many tarrifs.
We said "Russia? They're communist!?" And the CIA overthrew the new government, maintained the corrupt Sha, and then turned a blind eye to the people's suffering.
Fast forward to the 1980's, the Ayitola comes to power as part of a movement trying to overthrow the Sha we were backing. They saw us as being just as bad as he was.
(this comes from a history channel documentary I saw on the history of the CIA).
Either you got the facts wrong or that documentary did. Either way that's not entirely true about Iran's governent.
I don't know what life was like under the Shah's rule (btw it's spelled with an H), but I do know that there are things that were better under his regime then under the idiots. That "better government" wans't due to the Shah being over thrown. The reality of that is the kids that grew up under that are sick and tired of the iron fisted way things are run and so they're pushing for changes.
If anything, the governments since the idiot's are the better of them
But back to the idiot and the anti Shah faction. If he and his supporters were so great, then why did they break through police baracades and storm the lawn of the white house in 77 when the Shah was there? Why did they grab 2x4s and start beating the Shah's supporters who did nothing to them?
Because they were fanatics, just like the idiot that over threw the Shah.
As I said, get your facts straight.
Last edited by Batwoman; 2005-07-05 4:27 AM.
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Did you just call me an idiot?
what a bitch.
Bow ties are coool.
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The fact of the matter is that we imposed a government on them. Had the government failed on its own then they would've had no one to blame but themselves, by the CIA's actions in the 1950's we made ourselves their enemies.
Bow ties are coool.
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No. That's not correct in the least. If they actually knew that we pulled a regime-switch on them then maybe I would agree with you, but the fact of the matter is Ayatollah just hated the West. That's the only reason he went after the Shah. Plus the Shah could have gotten to that position on his own without us helping him. If that were the case and the Ayatollah still went after him for sewing Western seeds into Arab culture, would you still say we should blame ourselves simply because he hated us?
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Quote:
Pariah said:
No. That's not correct in the least. If they actually knew that we pulled a regime-switch on them then maybe I would agree with you, but the fact of the matter is Ayatollah just hated the West. That's the only reason he went after the Shah. Plus the Shah could have gotten to that position on his own without us helping him. If that were the case and the Ayatollah still went after him for sewing Western seeds into Arab culture, would you still say we should blame ourselves simply because he hated us?
what do you mean "if they knew?" its common knowledge. its been common knowledge for years.
Bow ties are coool.
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But not when the regime-switch took place. The CIA documents weren't declassified until a few years ago.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
But not when the regime-switch took place. The CIA documents weren't declassified until a few years ago.
A few decades ago is more like it. At the the time of the revolution, 1979, it was common knowledge that the Shah was a puppet installed by a coup against the elected government. CIA was widely known to be behind the coup.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Did you just call me an idiot?
what a bitch.
You really need to learn to read
It's a rented tux ok? I'm not going comando in another man's fatigues.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
A few decades ago is more like it. At the the time of the revolution, 1979, it was common knowledge that the Shah was a puppet installed by a coup against the elected government. CIA was widely known to be behind the coup.
But not when Ayatollah siezed power.
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Joined: May 2003
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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Quote:
Batwoman said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Did you just call me an idiot?
what a bitch.
You really need to learn to read
that's why I asked.
and I would've called you a bitch anyway.  (by adding the wink, you can't be 100% sure whether I'm being bsams-silly or a balloonknot-douche bag.)
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2003
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
A few decades ago is more like it. At the the time of the revolution, 1979, it was common knowledge that the Shah was a puppet installed by a coup against the elected government. CIA was widely known to be behind the coup.
But not when Ayatollah siezed power.
He just said it was.
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7
The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 30,833 Likes: 7 |
I repeat: No. It wasn't known.
They knew he was friendly with the west. But that's all they knew at the time. They didn't have knowledge of our hand in the matter until later.
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Joined: May 2003
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I repeat: No. It wasn't known.
They knew he was friendly with the west. But that's all they knew at the time. They didn't have knowledge of our hand in the matter until later.
then why was it that one of their first acts was to take U.S. hostages?
why do historians attribute that hostage taking to the CIA support of the Shah?
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I repeat: No. It wasn't known.
They knew he was friendly with the west. But that's all they knew at the time. They didn't have knowledge of our hand in the matter until later.
It was common knowledge in 1979. The Shah had been installed by a CIA sponsered coup de tete. Everyone knew it. The elected government of Mohammad Mosadeqq was removed and replaced by an absolute monarch, Reza Shah, who abdicated in favour of his son, Mohammad Reza Palavi later known as the Shah of Iran circa 1950. The Shah suppressed dissent through his secret police, SAVAK. A popular uprising in 1978 - 79 forced Palavi and his family to flee Iran and he became, persona non grata, unnacceptable for permanent residence in any state.
The Ayatolla was hailed as a liberator upon his return to Tehran. The hostage crises began when the USA agreed to allow Palavi and his family to enter the country for 'humanitarian purposes', seeking treatment for the cancer that would soon kill him.
I remember the story. I was in my 20s at the time and an avid reader of newspapers and magazines when I wasn't out sport-fucking or getting loaded. Believe me, EVERYONE KNEW.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Yeah, I pretty much gotta go with Jay on this one. We didn't make much of a secret of our support of the Shah prior to his removal from power.
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Yeah, I pretty much gotta go with Jay on this one. We didn't make much of a secret of our support of the Shah prior to his removal from power.
And do you also concede Reagan's arms for hostages deal?
Bow ties are coool.
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Joined: May 2003
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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No. The evidence for that is not nearly as compelling and, in fact, that allegation verges on a conspiracy theory.
But that's a topic for another thread.
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