RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Bushgate

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Matter-eater Man said:President Bush says he declassified portions of the prewar intelligence assessment on Iraq because he "wanted people to see the truth" about Iraq's weapons programs and to understand why he kept accusing Saddam Hussein of stockpiling weapons that turned out not to exist."

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r3x29yz4a said:

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Matter-eater Man said:President Bush says he declassified portions of the prewar intelligence assessment on Iraq because he "wanted people to see the truth" about Iraq's weapons programs and to understand why he kept accusing Saddam Hussein of stockpiling weapons that turned out not to exist."

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so a portion would be something like "we have reports that Saddam was trying to buy from Niger" and then left out portions would be "but that was disproven."

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Matter-eater Man said:

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r3x29yz4a said:

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Matter-eater Man said:President Bush says he declassified portions of the prewar intelligence assessment on Iraq because he "wanted people to see the truth" about Iraq's weapons programs and to understand why he kept accusing Saddam Hussein of stockpiling weapons that turned out not to exist."

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so a portion would be something like "we have reports that Saddam was trying to buy from Niger" and then left out portions would be "but that was disproven."

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I guess that's where I have a hard time understanding WBAM & others. What was declassified was clearly misleading. They obviously see something else or just ignoring the portions that don't work with what Bush says.

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wannabuyamonkey said:...

Show me the portions that contradict what the president said?

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wannabuyamonkey said:
Was that teh only available intellegence on the subject or do you just like that one because it says somethinbg you like?

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   Just as the news broke Wednesday about Scott McClellan resigning as White House press secretary and Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove shedding some of his policy duties, Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald met with the grand jury hearing evidence in the CIA leak case and introduced additional evidence against Rove, attorneys and other US officials close to the investigation said.

    The grand jury session in federal court in Washington, DC, sources close to the case said, was the first time this year that Fitzgerald told the jurors that he would soon present them with a list of criminal charges he intends to file against Rove in hopes of having the grand jury return a multi-count indictment against Rove.

    In an interview Wednesday, Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin, confirmed that Rove remains a "subject" of Fitzgerald's two-year-old probe.

    "Mr. Rove is still a subject of the investigation," Luskin said. In a previous interview, Luskin asserted that Rove would not be indicted by Fitzgerald, but he was unwilling to make that prediction again Wednesday.

    "Mr. Fitzgerald hasn't made any decision on the charges and I can't speculate what the outcome will be," Luskin said. "Mr. Rove has cooperated completely with the investigation."

    Fitzgerald is said to have introduced more evidence Wednesday alleging Rove lied to FBI investigators and the grand jury when he was questioned about how he found out that Valerie Plame Wilson worked for the CIA and whether he shared that information with the media, attorneys close to the case said.

    Fitzgerald told the grand jury that Rove lied to investigators and the prosecutor eight out of the nine times he was questioned about the leak and also tried to cover-up his role in disseminating Plame Wilson's CIA status to at least two reporters.

    Additionally, an FBI investigator reread to jurors testimony from other witnesses in the case that purportedly implicates Rove in playing a role in the leak and the campaign to discredit Plame Wilson's husband, former Ambassador Joseph Wilson, whose criticism of the Bush administration's pre-war Iraq intelligence lead to his wife being unmasked as a covert CIA operative.
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Novak also claimed that investigators know who leaked the information, although he did not say how they know.

"The question is, does Fitzgerald know who the source was?" Novak asked. "Of course. He's known for years who the first source is. If he knows the source, why didn't he indict him? Because no crime was committed."

Hitchens explains that "in February 1999, Saddam Hussein dispatched his former envoy [Wissam al-Zahawie] to the International Atomic Energy Agency, and former delegate to non-proliferation conferences at the United Nations, to Niger." Hitchens asks a reasonable question, what was Zahawie doing in Niger in 1999, and why didn't Joe Wilson have anything to say about it? After all, Joe was well-connected with Niger government officials, that's why the vice president, the CIA, former Clinton official and Kerry supporter Mary McCarthy (?) sent him to Niger on a special mission to discover whether dispel any claim that Iraq had contacted Niger regarding yellowcake uranium.

Joseph Wilson went to Niger in 2002 to investigate whether or not the country had renewed its uranium-based relationship with Iraq, spent a few days (by his own account) sipping mint tea with officials of that country who were (by his wife's account) already friendly to him, and came back with the news that all was above-board. Again to repeat myself, this must mean either that A) he did not know that Zahawie had come calling or B) that he did know but didn't think it worth mentioning that one of Saddam's point men on nukes had been in town. In neither case, it seems to me, should he be trusted with another mission that requires any sort of curiosity.

What is curious is why this was an ongoing, 24 hour a day story when Joe Wilson announced in the New York Times the results of his secret mission. Yet now that Wilson's claims are throughly, if not debunked, then rebutted, why has the media not worked itself into a frenzy? Where are the questions for Wilson's supporters? Where are the investigative journalists who are all too willing to dig up classified information that they can publicize at the risk of endangering U.S. policy and U.S. troops?

Certainly there must be some reason that there is no effort to undermine the primary narrative of the Iraq War and how we got into it. It must be more than incompetence on the part of the news editors and their inability to put two and two together.

Hitchens is calling for a special counsel to investigate the McCarthy leaks and throw reporters in jail if they don't turn over their notes, a la Scooter/Rove/Fitzgerald.

If it happens, it will be interesting to watch the Bush-haters, in the CIA and the press, themselves get what they wanted for the President.

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Multiple networks confirm: Rove to testify before grand jury
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MSNBC, AP, Fox News and CNN have all confirmed an NBC report that Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove will be testifying under oath for a fifth time in the investigation into the outing of CIA officer Valerie Plame, RAW STORY can report.

Rove met with attorneys to prepare this morning.

Failure by Rove to report conversations about Plame with Time reporter Matt Cooper was one focus of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's meeting with the grand jury yesterday. It was only the second time Fitzgerald has met with the grand jury.

Rove didn't report the conversations until near one year after the probes began. Months before Rove related the conversations to Fitzgerald, columnist Robert Novak told investigators that Rove may have discussed Plame's identity with Cooper.

The presidential advisor, who stepped down from his policy making role last week, is widely expected to be addressing new information that has recently emerged indicating that Rove attorney Robert Luskin had spoken to another Time magazine reporter, Viveca Novak, at a point critical in the prosecutor's case.

Still unknown is the identity of who shared information about Plame with reporter Bob Woodward.

Rove has not received a notification that he is a target of the investigation, or that he would likely be indicted. According to AP, Fitzgerald recently told Rove attorneys that he has not decided whether or not Rove will be facing charges.

RAW STORY reported earlier this month that those close to the case say that Rove is cooperating with the prosecution and may have provided the prosecutor with information that led to the White House turning over hundreds of pages of previously 'missing emails.'

Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, adamantly denied the report.

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the G-man said:
Your source, however, says that Rove is cooperating with the prosecutors and providing them information. If your source is correct, that would tend to mean he is not going to be indicted.

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r3x29yz4a said:

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the G-man said:
Your source, however, says that Rove is cooperating with the prosecutors and providing them information. If your source is correct, that would tend to mean he is not going to be indicted.

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Palpatine coorperated with the Jedis mostly....mostly.

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MSNBC confirms: Outed CIA agent was working on Iran

On Chris Matthews' Hardball Monday evening, just moments ago, MSNBC correspondent David Shuster confirmed what RAW STORY first reported in February: that outed CIA officer Valerie Plame Wilson was working on Iran at the time she was outed.

RAW STORY's Larisa Alexandrovna broke the story earlier this year, which went unnoticed by the mainstream media (Read our full story).

According to current and former intelligence officials, Plame Wilson, who worked on the clandestine side of the CIA in the Directorate of Operations as a non-official cover (NOC) officer, was part of an operation tracking distribution and acquisition of weapons of mass destruction technology to and from Iran.

Reports Shuster in this rush transcript: "INTELLIGENCE SOURCES SAY VALERIE WILSON WAS PART OF AN OPERATION THREE YEARS AGO TRACKING THE PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS MATERIAL INTO IRAN. AND THE SOURCES ALLEGE THAT WHEN MRS. WILSON'S COVER WAS BLOWN, THE ADMINISTRATION'S ABILITY TO TRACK IRAN'S NUCLEAR AMBITIONS WAS DAMAGED AS WELL.
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the G-man said:
What this story really says is that Plame was an analyst, not a covert operative.

Further, if she was, in fact, working on Iran...then that tends to indicate she had little, if any, real knowledge of IraQ, which tends to indicate her recommending her husband for the job was, in fact, an uninformed recommendation...or perhaps one designed to hurt the Bush administration.

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r3x29yz4a said:

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the G-man said:
What this story really says is that Plame was an analyst, not a covert operative.

Further, if she was, in fact, working on Iran...then that tends to indicate she had little, if any, real knowledge of IraQ, which tends to indicate her recommending her husband for the job was, in fact, an uninformed recommendation...or perhaps one designed to hurt the Bush administration.

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You have yet to provide any valid reason to destroy her career.

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wannabuyamonkey said:

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r3x29yz4a said:

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the G-man said:
What this story really says is that Plame was an analyst, not a covert operative.

Further, if she was, in fact, working on Iran...then that tends to indicate she had little, if any, real knowledge of IraQ, which tends to indicate her recommending her husband for the job was, in fact, an uninformed recommendation...or perhaps one designed to hurt the Bush administration.

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You have yet to provide any valid reason to destroy her career.

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You have yet to prove that anyone is more guilty than her own husband in outing her.

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Matter-eater Man said:
I would kindly suggest G-man that your letting partisanship cloud your judgement. Luckily this matter is in the courts & hopefully escapes such partisanship judgement.

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...As MSNBC first reported yesterday, Wilson was not just undercover... but was, according to intelligence sources, part of an effort three years ago to monitor the proliferation of nuclear weapons material into Iran. And the sources allege that when Mrs. Wilson's cover was blown, part of the administration's ability to track Iran's nuclear ambitions was damaged as well.

There is no evidence Vice President Cheney, who gave information to his now indicted chief of staff Scooter Libby, knew what Wilson was involved in. But intelligence experts say the Vice President appears to have had indications that Wilson's responsibilities were sensitive. The Libby indictment says, quote, "on or about June 12, 2003, Libby was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division."

In the Intelligence community, that division means something special.

Rand Beers: You know for a fact that firstly, the people who work there could be undercover agents working in that office or people on the agent's side of the CIA. And secondly, the issues were among the two most important issues the CIA was working on."

Vice President Cheney was no stranger to the CIA. In the run-up to the Iraq war, he visited CIA headquarters on half a dozen occasions. And Scooter Libby, his chief of staff, was also well versed on the intelligence community.

But prosecution documents in the Libby case paint a picture of a white house so intent on undercutting Cheney critic Joe Wilson that officials failed to consider the possible harm to Wilson's wife or the possible damage to the CIA. In other words, say intelligence experts, the white house war on the Wilsons may have actually weakened the administration's war on terror.

Rand Beers: Even at the time of the undermining in the summer of 2003, we were still deeply worried about what was happening in the Iranian nuclear program. So, why would you want to undermine that."
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the G-man said:

For about two years now, I've been telling you guys that there was real doubt that Plame was outed, that outing her may not be a crime, etc.

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Matter-eater Man said:
[Plame] was not just undercover... but was, according to intelligence sources, part of an effort three years ago to monitor the proliferation of nuclear weapons material into Iran. And the sources allege that when Mrs. Wilson's cover was blown, part of the administration's ability to track Iran's nuclear ambitions was damaged as well.

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Wow. Look at this. It's the Who's Who entry for Joe Wilson. There's his wife's name, Valerie Plame, right there since the late 1990s.





Quite a national security leak there.

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Cheney Penned Note About Plame, Filing Shows

After former U.S. ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV publicly criticized a key rationale for the war in Iraq, Vice President Cheney wrote a note on a newspaper clipping raising the possibility that the critique resulted from a CIA-sponsored "junket" arranged by Wilson's wife, covert CIA officer Valerie Plame, according to court documents filed late Friday.

The filing by special prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald is the second that names Cheney as a key White House official who questioned the legitimacy of Wilson's examination of Iraqi nuclear ambitions. It further suggests that Cheney helped originate the idea in his office that Wilson's credibility was undermined by his link to Plame.

Fitzgerald's filing states that Cheney passed the annotated article by Wilson to his chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, who Fitzgerald says subsequently discussed Wilson's marriage to Plame in conversations with two reporters, despite the fact that Plame was a covert CIA officer and her name was not supposed to be revealed. The filing was first reported by Newsweek on its Web site.

Fitzgerald does not allege in his filing that Cheney ordered Libby to disclose Plame's identity. But he states that Cheney's note to Libby helps "explain the context of, and provide a motive for" many of the later statements and actions by Libby. Libby was indicted last year for making false statements to FBI agents, obstruction of justice and perjury, mostly based on Libby's testimony that he did not confirm Plame's involvement in conversations with the two journalists.
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Fitzgerald does not allege in his filing that Cheney ordered Libby to disclose Plame's identity.

"Have they done this sort of thing before?" Cheney wrote. "Send an amb[assador] to answer a question? Do we ordinarily send people out pro bono to work for us? Or did his wife send him on a junket?"

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Matter-eater Man said:
It would be interesting to hear Cheney's side of the story on this (under oath of course) Did he & others find out that part of the CIA was conspiring against him & the President? Perhaps during the Libby trial.

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Libby Prosecutor Focuses on CIA Officer's Status
Filings Say Ex-Cheney Aide Knew That Plame Was Classified, Giving Him Reason to Lie to Grand Jury

The classified status of the identity of former CIA officer Valerie Plame will be a key element in any trial of I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Vice President Cheney's former chief of staff, according to special counsel Patrick J. Fitzgerald.

Fitzgerald has said that at trial he plans to show that Libby knew Plame's employment at the CIA was classified and that he lied to the grand jury when he said he had learned from NBC News's Tim Russert that Plame, the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, worked for the agency.
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the G-man said Sat Jul 02 2005 09:39 AM:
Even if true that Rove leaked the name, it has been noted on more than one occasion here that this was quite possibly not even a crime…the so-called "outing" of Plame was probably not criminal after all.

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the G-man said Mon Jul 11 2005 11:57 AM:
At this point, Rove is looking innocent

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the G-man said Fri Jul 15 2005 02:23 PM:
… Rove simply confirmed a fact that was already in circulation. He no more "outed" Plame than Wilson did when he peddled his "outing" allegation to various left-wing journalists after Novak's column ran.

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the G-man said Wed Apr 26 2006 01:32 PM:
If your source is correct, that would tend to mean he is not going to be indicted.

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Matter-eater Man said:
I would kindly suggest G-man that your letting partisanship cloud your judgement. Luckily this matter is in the courts & hopefully escapes such partisanship judgement.

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the G-man said Tue May 02 2006 08:58 PM:
For about two years now, I've been telling you guys that there was real doubt that Plame was outed at all, that "outing" her may not be a crime, etc. For about that same time, you've been accusing me of being partisan.

To date, however, not a single person has been charged with outing Plame and the only criminal charge to date was a count of lying to the grand jury, which I said was, in fact, a crime.

In other words, to date, the courts have operated in a manner consistent my position, not yours.

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the G-man said:

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the G-man said Sat Jul 02 2005 09:39 AM:
Even if true that Rove leaked the name, it has been noted on more than one occasion here that this was quite possibly not even a crime…the so-called "outing" of Plame was probably not criminal after all.

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the G-man said Mon Jul 11 2005 11:57 AM:
At this point, Rove is looking innocent

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the G-man said Fri Jul 15 2005 02:23 PM:
… Rove simply confirmed a fact that was already in circulation. He no more "outed" Plame than Wilson did when he peddled his "outing" allegation to various left-wing journalists after Novak's column ran.

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the G-man said Wed Apr 26 2006 01:32 PM:
If your source is correct, that would tend to mean he is not going to be indicted.

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Lawyer: Karl Rove Won't Be Charged in CIA Leak Case

President Bush’s political adviser Karl Rove won’t be charged with any wrongdoing in connection to the investigation of the leak of a covert CIA officer’s identity, Rove's lawyer said Tuesday.

Rove learned of Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's decision on Monday after he stepped off a plane in New Hampshire where he was delivering a speech to state Republican officials.

“We believe that the special counsel's decision should put an end to the baseless speculation about Mr. Rove's conduct,” Rove attorney Robert Luskin said in a statement. "In deference to the pending case, we will not make any further public statements about the subject matter of the investigation."

Fitzgerald’s decision ends speculation into the investigation that started in 2004 that Bush could lose his longtime political aide if criminal charges came down against him.

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the G-man said:
Beyond the whole "innocent until proven guilty" concept, there is the fact that, for a grand jury to charge someone, there need only be a "probable cause" or a reasonable basis to believe that person committed a crime.

In the case at hand, the grand jury apparently found there was not even a reasonable basis to believe that Rove committed a crime. Therefore, yes, he is technically "innocent."

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Sorry, guys.

Anyway, look around the Web and you can find examples of the Angry Left going through the five stages of grieving:

• Denial. Truthout.org (motto: "If you want the truth, get out of here") "reports" that Rove actually has been indicted. "As of Friday afternoon that indictment, returned by the grand jury the week of May 10th, remains under seal--more than a month after it was handed up by the grand jury. The case number is "06 cr 128." On the federal court's electronic database, '06
  cr 128' is listed along with a succinct summary: 'No further information is available.' " Says blogress Christy Smith: "Unless and until I hear it from Patrick Fitzgerald, the investigation continues to be ongoing. Which means that there are still potential developments down the road."
  
  
• Bargaining. "This latest news doesn't prove or disprove the basic question of whether Fitzgerald was ready to indict Rove," claims Duncan "Atrios" Black. "It's quite likely Rove has cut a deal of some sort. It's quite possible that Fitz's letter to Luskin, which hasn't been made public as far as I can tell, says something along the lines of 'as long as you cooperate as promised your ass is safe for now.' " Black's employer, Media Mutters, says maybe Rove will lose his security clearance for--well, for what isn't quite clear.
  
  
  


• Anger. "He doesn't belong in the White House. If the president valued America more than he valued his connection to Karl Rove, Karl Rove would have been fired a long time ago," says Democratic National Committee chairman Howard Dean on the "Today" show. "So I think this is probably good news for the White House, but it's not very good news for America."
  
  
  
• Despair. "My Heart Is Broken, My Spirit Crushed, My Faith in America Destroyed," declares "Dementer"on DemocraticUnderground.com. "On the other hand, I am sure that there are numerous other criminal enterprises that Kkkarl [sic] has participated in, so we just have to keep digging. Perhaps Fitz is doing just that--he has the license to do so. Or am I approaching the definition of insanity, here?"
  
  
  


• Acceptance. "I think the chances are nil that Luskin is making this up since that'd be practically daring Patrick Fitzgerald to indict his client," says Josh Marshall. "Whatever else he may be . . ., he's no fool." Though Marshall must be feeling quite foolish for having been one of Wilson's most enthusiastic and credulous cheerleaders way back when.

Drudge notes that many Angry Left Web sites have been strangely quiet, though MSNBC's Keith Olbermann, who according to Drudge has predicted Rove's indictment at least 26 times, does comment: "It is the 'Perfect Storm' of baseball scandals."

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the G-man said:
This has got to be the worst day for the Angry Left since at least [url=http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php/Number/717203#717203">last Thursday</a>. For months they have been the day that the grand jury handed up indictments of Rove and--who knows?--maybe even the vice president himself.</p><p>Sorry, guys.</p><p>Anyway, look around the Web and you can find examples of the Angry Left going through <a href="http://rovianconspiracy.blogspot.com/2006/06/reality-based-community-goes-through-5.html]the five stages of grieving[/url]:</p>
<ul>

Denial. [url=http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/061206Z.shtml]Truthout.org[/url] (motto: "If you want the truth, get out of here") "reports" that Rove actually has been indicted. "As of Friday afternoon that indictment, returned by the grand jury the week of May 10th, remains under seal--more than a month after it was handed up by the grand jury. The case number is "06 cr 128." On the federal court's electronic database, '06
cr 128' is listed along with a succinct summary: 'No further information is available.' " Says blogress [url=http://www.firedoglake.com/2006/06/13/dodging-cipa-graymail-bulletsand-other-legal-notes/]Christy Smith[/url]: "Unless and until I hear it from Patrick Fitzgerald, the investigation continues to be ongoing. Which means that there are still potential developments down the road."<br><br></li>

Bargaining. "This latest news doesn't prove or disprove the basic question of whether Fitzgerald was ready to indict Rove," claims [url=http://atrios.blogspot.com/2006_06_11_atrios_archive.html#115021086256551479]Duncan "Atrios" Black[/url]. "It's quite likely Rove has cut a deal of some sort. It's quite possible that Fitz's letter to Luskin, which hasn't been made public as far as I can tell, says something along the lines of 'as long as you cooperate as promised your ass is safe for now.' " Black's employer, [url=http://mediamatters.org/items/200606130002]Media Mutters[/url], says maybe Rove will lose his security clearance for--well, for what isn't quite clear.<br> <br>
</li>

Anger. "He doesn't belong in the White House. If the president valued America more than he valued his connection to Karl Rove, Karl Rove would have been fired a long time ago," says Democratic National Committee chairman [url=http://www.woai.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=D3F63690-656F-4AA8-9A27-5EFD0CE765C1]Howard Dean[/url] on the "Today" show. "So I think this is probably good news for the White House, but it's not very good news for America." <br><br>
</li>

Despair. "My Heart Is Broken, My Spirit Crushed, My Faith in America Destroyed," declares "[url=http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2335471&mesg_id=2335481]Dementer[/url]"on DemocraticUnderground.com. "On the other hand, I am sure that there are numerous other criminal enterprises that Kkkarl [sic] has participated in, so we just have to keep digging. Perhaps Fitz is doing just that--he has the license to do so. Or am I approaching the definition of insanity, here?"<br> <br>
</li>

Acceptance. "I think the chances are nil that Luskin is making this up since that'd be practically daring Patrick Fitzgerald to indict his client," says [url=http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/008729.php]Josh Marshall[/url]. "Whatever else he may be . . ., he's no fool." Though Marshall must be feeling quite foolish for having been one of Wilson's most enthusiastic and credulous cheerleaders way back when.</li>[/LIST]<p>[url=http://www.drudgereport.com/flash2ri.htm]Drudge[/url] notes that many Angry Left Web sites have been strangely quiet, though MSNBC's [url=http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12131617/#060607a]Keith Olbermann[/url], who according to Drudge has predicted Rove's indictment at least 26 times, does comment: "It is the 'Perfect Storm' of baseball scandals." </p>

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You are a such a sad, petty person. The fact that an adult, supposed professional lawyer, takes the time to make such a fancy little post that ultimately boils down to a petty "i told you so" logical fallacy is so sad.
Are we still supposed to believe that you're married with a job? Are we?