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Zionism isn't the same as Judiasm.
Zionism was a political movement, and an adamantly secular one at that. The founders of the Zionist movement didn't want Judaism to be the law of the land. In fact, the reason the six-pointed star was chosen was because it was a symbol that has nothing to do with the Jewish religion. It's an ancient symbol which is common in demonology and the occult.
It's not fair to hold the Jewish religion in contempt because of a political movement.
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My little two bits on the topic, not having read what came before:
Religion as an institution: no. History has proven time and time again that religion is a destructive force in society. It leads to xenophobia and violence. This is an indisbutable fact. It is the leading cause of atrocities in man's sorted history.
Spirituality: yes. People need to feel acountable for thier actions on more than an 'I don't want to get caught' level. They need to understand that the price of living an immoral life wieghs on their souls in ways that money and personal gain cannot replenish.
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I'm a big believer in philosophy and a belief in "something" larger at work. But I think once any philosophy becomes part of an organization where money and power are involved, it becomes tainted.
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r3x29yz4a said:
I'm a big believer in philosophy and a belief in "something" larger at work. But I think once any philosophy becomes part of an organization where money and power are involved, it becomes tainted.
Exactly. The church is a prime example of this. It no longer represents anything Christ intended - in fact being quite the opposite. And just on personal assumption, I'm willing to wager that the case is similar in all major religions.
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Pariah said:
Jay is saying that the Jews were sheep that were hypnotized by the Jewish philosophy. He saying that if they were goats, they wouldn't have followed its teachings. i.e. He's a condescending prick.
Talk about your ad hominem...
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Methos said:
Zionism isn't the same as Judiasm.
Zionism was a political movement, and an adamantly secular one at that. The founders of the Zionist movement didn't want Judaism to be the law of the land. In fact, the reason the six-pointed star was chosen was because it was a symbol that has nothing to do with the Jewish religion. It's an ancient symbol which is common in demonology and the occult.
It's not fair to hold the Jewish religion in contempt because of a political movement.
I don't hold Jews in conntempt. For one thing they don't have the need to knock on my door and try and convince me they know everything about divinity. I only claim that the power elite have used you and your faith to secular ends.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
I do believe the All, Pariah, the unified Goddess and God! I'm not an atheist, I'm a Pagan! I believe in lots of gods or demigods if you prefer (I think Catholics call them Saints). I'm talking about the institution of religion in society. The post wasn't about the rightness or wrongness of any particular religion. It was about it's effects on society. I'm glad you agree with me on this, P!
You make it known how illogical you feel religion is and the idea that there is a god(s) and yet you, yourself, are apart of one...Exactly what about your religion makes it any different from mine in terms of theism and the all around belief of a higher power(s)? Because it's "nature based"?
Only because we're a very small and diverse group without a heirarchical institutional structure. You may not be able to bring us into the fold without losing the Christians, a far more attractive prize just based on numbers. The only reason we haven't been co opted is that no one has tried to co opt us yet.
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magicjay38 said:
Fast forward to circa 1850. Zionism becomes popular with many Jews. Skip forwaard to turn of the century. We enter the age of oil when Churchill switches from coal to oil fired navy. Zionist and imperial economic interests intersect. The European Jews return to Israel and become proxy/vassel state of USA, using it's military force as the Big Stick of American foreign policy. The Return to Promised Land motivates the new Israeli warriors. They say to Palestinians 'We've been on holiday the last couple millinea but were back now. So get out.'
I'd go like to stick around, but, I gotta go!
Wow! What a way to misunderstand history. The desire for a Jewish nation was born from Jews who had, for the most part, abandoned their religion. Most religious Jews shrugged away the idea. The immigration of many European Jews to Palestine (where, oddly enough, there were also Christians and Jews living) was a result of anti-semetic practices in Russia and Germany. After WWI, the British gained control of the area as it was once the Ottoman Empire. The Arabs of the region had the British supress Jewish immigration into a land that the Arabs didn't want until after Jewish settlers had worked and improved it. Also, it was the British endorsement of a Jewish state that led to the formation of Israel.
In other words, it wasn't the Jewish religion that led to Israel being established. There's a difference between Judaism the religion and the Jewish ethnic group.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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The Holocaust may have been another major factor in the formation - or at least desire - for a Jewish state. After the Jews had lost so many of their bretheren and spritual leaders, they probably felt that a state of their own in their ancestral homeland would be a safe haven from anti-semitic forces who might try and destroy them again.
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While secular Zionism is the key that led to the return of Jewish state of Israel in the world, secular Zionism was based on the fact that Jews needed a place where they could live in peace, be it religiously or not. The first secular Zionists didn't even want to return to Israel. In a strange twist of events (they tried and failed to purchase Alaska, for one), and by strange twist, I mean the Hand of God (because it is obvious to me that He had an active hand in this), they chose to return the land of Israel, mainly because NO ONE ELSE WANTED IT. That, and it was a way to get the religious Zionists to help them rebuild the land.
A key thing to understand is that Zion is a nother name for Israel, as was Canaan. Zionism means, simply, love of Israel. There cannot be a Zionist movement with the land of Israel. It's just not possible.
So, the question is, how does religious Zionism come into play when talking about the land of Zion, the land of Israel?
Anyone who has read a basic translation of the Torah knows that Israel is an essential part of Judaism (the lifestyle/culture and the religion and the people/nation). Many of the 613 commandments can only be done in the land of Israel. Shmita, for example (I'm sorry, I don't have time to link to Wikipedia right now), can only be done in the land of Israel.
There has always been a Zionist movement within the religious Jews, however it did not gain true strength until after the Holocaust. It was then that all religious Jews realized the importance of the land, of having a place to call home.
However, there has been an argument within the teachings of the rabbis about how whether we may settle the land before the coming of the Moshiach. Religious Zionists believe that we must do what we can to make ourselves worthy of the redemption. If the oportunity arises, as it has, we must grasp it. There are still those who disagree, however even they take great benifit in being able to travel to, and live in, the state of Israel.
As for an econimic reason for the religion, what do econimics have to do with a people who were given a land by God to call their own, a small piece of land, where they may worship him?
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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magicjay38 said:
Religion is like other social institutions in that it is dependent upon the material and economic realities in a given society. It has no independent history; instead it is the creature of productive forces. The religious world is but the reflex of the real world.
Religion can only be understood in relation to other social systems and the economic structures of society. In fact, religion is only dependent upon economics, nothing else — so much so that the actual religious doctrines are almost irrelevant. This is a functionalist interpretation of religion: understanding religion is dependent upon what social purpose religion itself serves, not the content of its beliefs.
Religion is an illusion that provides reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it is. Religion takes our highest ideals and aspirations and alienates us from them, projecting them onto an alien and unknowable being called a god.
I have three reasons for disliking religion:
- First, it is irrational — religion is a delusion and a worship of appearances that avoids recognizing underlying reality .
- Second, religion negates all that is dignified in a human being by rendering them servile and more amenable to accepting the status quo. In the words of the Greek hero Prometheus who defied the gods to bring fire to humanity: “I hate all gods,” with addition that they “do not recognize man’s self-consciousness as the highest divinity.”
- Third, religion is hypocritical. Although it might profess valuable principles, it sides with the oppressors. Jesus advocated helping the poor, but the Christian church merged with the oppressive Roman state, taking part in the enslavement of people for centuries. In the Middle Ages the Catholic Church preached about heaven, but acquired as much property and power as possible.
Martin Luther preached the ability of each individual to interpret the Bible, but sided with aristocratic rulers and against peasants who fought against economic and social oppression. This new form of Christianity, Protestantism, was a production of new economic forces as early capitalism developed. New economic realities required a new religious superstructure by which it could be justified and defended.
Quote:
Hegel’s Philosophy of Law:
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
This is often misunderstood, perhaps because the full passage is rarely used: the boldface in the above is my own, showing what is usually quoted. The italics are in the original. In some ways, the quote is presented dishonestly because saying “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature...” leaves out that it is also the “heart of a heartless world.” This is more a critique of society that has become heartless and is even a partial validation of religion that it tries to become its heart.
Religion is meant to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. I am not entirely without sympathy: people are in distress and religion does provide solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs.
The problem is that opiates fail to fix a physical injury — you only forget your pain and suffering. This can be fine, but only if you are also trying to solve the underlying causes of the pain. Similarly, religion does not fix the underlying causes of people’s pain and suffering — instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and causes them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease instead of working to change circumstances now. Even worse, this “drug” is being administered by the oppressors who are responsible for the pain and suffering.
I made some very radical statements in this post. The language is very explicit and direct. Yet no one has taken me on. You've asked me questions about about Judaism and try to draw me into a debate using Socratic method where I'll be constantly on the defensive. Well guys, Homie don' play that game! You seem to believe Jews are different, a novel concept indeed. Tell me what makes them so. I'm not going to make your argument for you. Where is my folly?
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America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
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Maybe because it's not worth reading. You keep telling us about how our religions are "irrational" and yet you, yourself, admit to being a practitioner of a theistic religion.
The irony here is your use of the word "hypocritical" to describe Christianity.
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I guess this means Theory's become the new Disco Steve.
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I HAVE INDIGESTION, DAMMIT!
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Religion is like other social institutions in that it is dependent upon the material and economic realities in a given society. It has no independent history; instead it is the creature of productive forces. The religious world is but the reflex of the real world.
Religion can only be understood in relation to other social systems and the economic structures of society. In fact, religion is only dependent upon economics, nothing else — so much so that the actual religious doctrines are almost irrelevant. This is a functionalist interpretation of religion: understanding religion is dependent upon what social purpose religion itself serves, not the content of its beliefs.
Religion is an illusion that provides reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it is. Religion takes our highest ideals and aspirations and alienates us from them, projecting them onto an alien and unknowable being called a god.
I have three reasons for disliking religion:
- First, it is irrational — religion is a delusion and a worship of appearances that avoids recognizing underlying reality .
- Second, religion negates all that is dignified in a human being by rendering them servile and more amenable to accepting the status quo. In the words of the Greek hero Prometheus who defied the gods to bring fire to humanity: “I hate all gods,” with addition that they “do not recognize man’s self-consciousness as the highest divinity.”
- Third, religion is hypocritical. Although it might profess valuable principles, it sides with the oppressors. Jesus advocated helping the poor, but the Christian church merged with the oppressive Roman state, taking part in the enslavement of people for centuries. In the Middle Ages the Catholic Church preached about heaven, but acquired as much property and power as possible.
Martin Luther preached the ability of each individual to interpret the Bible, but sided with aristocratic rulers and against peasants who fought against economic and social oppression. This new form of Christianity, Protestantism, was a production of new economic forces as early capitalism developed. New economic realities required a new religious superstructure by which it could be justified and defended.
Quote:
Hegel’s Philosophy of Law:
Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people.
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.
This is often misunderstood, perhaps because the full passage is rarely used: the boldface in the above is my own, showing what is usually quoted. The italics are in the original. In some ways, the quote is presented dishonestly because saying “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature...” leaves out that it is also the “heart of a heartless world.” This is more a critique of society that has become heartless and is even a partial validation of religion that it tries to become its heart.
Religion is meant to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. I am not entirely without sympathy: people are in distress and religion does provide solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs.
The problem is that opiates fail to fix a physical injury — you only forget your pain and suffering. This can be fine, but only if you are also trying to solve the underlying causes of the pain. Similarly, religion does not fix the underlying causes of people’s pain and suffering — instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and causes them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease instead of working to change circumstances now. Even worse, this “drug” is being administered by the oppressors who are responsible for the pain and suffering.
I made some very radical statements in this post. The language is very explicit and direct. Yet no one has taken me on. You've asked me questions about about Judaism and try to draw me into a debate using Socratic method where I'll be constantly on the defensive. Well guys, Homie don' play that game! You seem to believe Jews are different, a novel concept indeed. Tell me what makes them so. I'm not going to make your argument for you. Where is my folly?
Your folly was that you are unable to back up all of your opinion. Your recitement of history was lacking in several very fine and important points. It's your opinion, and you can have it. We can also question it.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Religion is meant to create illusory fantasies for the poor. Economic realities prevent them from finding true happiness in this life, so religion tells them this is OK because they will find true happiness in the next life. I am not entirely without sympathy: people are in distress and religion does provide solace, just as people who are physically injured receive relief from opiate-based drugs.
The problem is that opiates fail to fix a physical injury — you only forget your pain and suffering. This can be fine, but only if you are also trying to solve the underlying causes of the pain. Similarly, religion does not fix the underlying causes of people’s pain and suffering — instead, it helps them forget why they are suffering and causes them to look forward to an imaginary future when the pain will cease instead of working to change circumstances now. Even worse, this “drug” is being administered by the oppressors who are responsible for the pain and suffering.
Your folly was that you are unable to back up all of your opinion. Your recitement of history was lacking in several very fine and important points. It's your opinion, and you can have it. We can also question it.
First of all I'm discussing IDEAS not history! The above statement has no historical referance. It's just an expression of my thoughts. Use history if you want, but rebutt me. Tell me why I'm wrong.
No one has disputed the truth of the original statement. You've tried to draw me into a dialectic about Judaism and I'm having no part of it! You all see religion as an instrument of social control? Karl Rove does! Are we both wrong?
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
First of all I'm discussing IDEAS not history! The above statement has no historical referance.
Your post, the one you're complaining about, carried half a dozen attempts at interpreting history. You used them mainly as foundations for calling religion "irrational" and "hypocritical".
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Jay, I'm not going to take apart your post piece by piece and counter it point for point. I've made my point. I don't see how your economics argument works for Judaism. I won't comment on other religions because I just don't know them well enough, so I would be doing them a diservice. But I do know my own religion. You attacked it, I am saying I just don't see how your attack works against it. I've offered up proof. You've said nothing to disprove me. Doc's right in that what you have said has been inaccurate.
My method here is quite simple. You have made a very broad statement encompassing all religions. I have taken the one religion I do know and said I don't see how your argument is applicable to it.. At this point, the burden of proof is on you. And if you can't apply the argument to one religion, you need to either alter your statement, or admit that your statement is incorrect.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
First of all I'm discussing IDEAS not history! The above statement has no historical referance.
Your post, the one you're complaining about, carried half a dozen attempts at interpreting history. You used them mainly as foundations for calling religion "irrational" and "hypocritical".
So you agree that the statement is correct. Like Hagel stated it:
"Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people." Glad to know you support me on this Pariah! 
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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PenWing said:
Jay, I'm not going to take apart your post piece by piece and counter it point for point. I've made my point. I don't see how your economics argument works for Judaism. I won't comment on other religions because I just don't know them well enough, so I would be doing them a diservice. But I do know my own religion. You attacked it, I am saying I just don't see how your attack works against it. I've offered up proof. You've said nothing to disprove me. Doc's right in that what you have said has been inaccurate.
My method here is quite simple. You have made a very broad statement encompassing all religions. I have taken the one religion I do know and said I don't see how your argument is applicable to it.. At this point, the burden of proof is on you. And if you can't apply the argument to one religion, you need to either alter your statement, or admit that your statement is incorrect.
You want to know how this applies to Jews. Fine.
Except for the last 50 or 60 years no one in power really gave a fuck what Jews thought or did. If you got out of line the king or czar or whatever royal title happened to control the area would announce that the Jews were to blame for name your disaster. The local populace would ethnicly cleanse itself of the outsiders, sieze what ever property was left behind and go on about their merry way. Being a hated minority has it's draw backs!
Along comes the 20th century and the age of oil. Just our luck that the largest reserves are located in a part of the world that is hostile to western interests. Something about the occupation by the British Empire.
How do we keep the Muslim locals in line? Well, drawing the map without regard to ethnicity or religious sect was a good start. It assured there would be chronic infighting among the locals. But we still need a preseance to present an armed threat. How about we get the Jews to do it? We offer them land that isn't ours to begin with and provide money to establish the state of Israel!
Young Jews, anxious to return to God's Promised Land would gladly sacrifice their lives to restore the Jewish homeland. They could also provide a proxy threat to the Muslim natives should their rulers become uncooperative with the western powers.
It was a great sales job! And it could not have been done without the support of Jewish believers and religious institutions. Today, Israel is the largest recipient of US aid both militarily and economic. They make the world safe for the dollar and keep the Saud family in power. Thank you guys! We'll give you dough but we still don't want you in our country clubs!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
So you agree that the statement is correct.
No. You're just avoiding the fact that your post was centrated on (poorly) recounted history.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
So you agree that the statement is correct.
No. You're just avoiding the fact that your post was centrated on (poorly) recounted history.
So what is wrong with my version of 'history'? I wrote a long post already. I'm not going to write a dissertation here. Where does my interpretation of history differ from yours?
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
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theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
I'm sure in your mind, you just made a point. I just don't seem to get what it is.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
I'm sure in your mind, you just made a point. I just don't seem to get what it is.
it was an analogy.
sometimes things happen due to nature, sometimes they happen due to someone's actions. it's ridiculous to assume everything that happens is the work of someONE.
gravity is gravity, not the devil trying to pull things to hell.
thunder is thunder, not god bowling.
Bow ties are coool.
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1500+ posts
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
I'm sure in your mind, you just made a point. I just don't seem to get what it is.
it was an analogy.
sometimes things happen due to nature, sometimes they happen due to someone's actions. it's ridiculous to assume everything that happens is the work of someONE.
gravity is gravity, not the devil trying to pull things to hell.
thunder is thunder, not god bowling.
Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory
KANSAS CITY, KS—As the debate over the teaching of evolution in public schools continues, a new controversy over the science curriculum arose Monday in this embattled Midwestern state. Scientists from the Evangelical Center For Faith-Based Reasoning are now asserting that the long-held "theory of gravity" is flawed, and they have responded to it with a new theory of Intelligent Falling.
Rev. Gabriel Burdett (left) explains Intelligent Falling.
Above: Rev. Gabriel Burdett (left) explains Intelligent Falling.
"Things fall not because they are acted upon by some gravitational force, but because a higher intelligence, 'God' if you will, is pushing them down," said Gabriel Burdett, who holds degrees in education, applied Scripture, and physics from Oral Roberts University.
Burdett added: "Gravity—which is taught to our children as a law—is founded on great gaps in understanding. The laws predict the mutual force between all bodies of mass, but they cannot explain that force. Isaac Newton himself said, 'I suspect that my theories may all depend upon a force for which philosophers have searched all of nature in vain.' Of course, he is alluding to a higher power."
Founded in 1987, the ECFR is the world's leading institution of evangelical physics, a branch of physics based on literal interpretation of the Bible.
According to the ECFR paper published simultaneously this week in the International Journal Of Science and the adolescent magazine God's Word For Teens!, there are many phenomena that cannot be explained by secular gravity alone, including such mysteries as how angels fly, how Jesus ascended into Heaven, and how Satan fell when cast out of Paradise.
The ECFR, in conjunction with the Christian Coalition and other Christian conservative action groups, is calling for public-school curriculums to give equal time to the Intelligent Falling theory. They insist they are not asking that the theory of gravity be banned from schools, but only that students be offered both sides of the issue "so they can make an informed decision."
"We just want the best possible education for Kansas' kids," Burdett said.
Proponents of Intelligent Falling assert that the different theories used by secular physicists to explain gravity are not internally consistent. Even critics of Intelligent Falling admit that Einstein's ideas about gravity are mathematically irreconcilable with quantum mechanics. This fact, Intelligent Falling proponents say, proves that gravity is a theory in crisis.
"Let's take a look at the evidence," said ECFR senior fellow Gregory Lunsden."In Matthew 15:14, Jesus says, 'And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.' He says nothing about some gravity making them fall—just that they will fall. Then, in Job 5:7, we read, 'But mankind is born to trouble, as surely as sparks fly upwards.' If gravity is pulling everything down, why do the sparks fly upwards with great surety? This clearly indicates that a conscious intelligence governs all falling."
Critics of Intelligent Falling point out that gravity is a provable law based on empirical observations of natural phenomena. Evangelical physicists, however, insist that there is no conflict between Newton's mathematics and Holy Scripture.
"Closed-minded gravitists cannot find a way to make Einstein's general relativity match up with the subatomic quantum world," said Dr. Ellen Carson, a leading Intelligent Falling expert known for her work with the Kansan Youth Ministry. "They've been trying to do it for the better part of a century now, and despite all their empirical observation and carefully compiled data, they still don't know how."
"Traditional scientists admit that they cannot explain how gravitation is supposed to work," Carson said. "What the gravity-agenda scientists need to realize is that 'gravity waves' and 'gravitons' are just secular words for 'God can do whatever He wants.'"
Some evangelical physicists propose that Intelligent Falling provides an elegant solution to the central problem of modern physics.
"Anti-falling physicists have been theorizing for decades about the 'electromagnetic force,' the 'weak nuclear force,' the 'strong nuclear force,' and so-called 'force of gravity,'" Burdett said. "And they tilt their findings toward trying to unite them into one force. But readers of the Bible have already known for millennia what this one, unified force is: His name is Jesus."
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
I'm sure in your mind, you just made a point. I just don't seem to get what it is.
it was an analogy.
sometimes things happen due to nature, sometimes they happen due to someone's actions. it's ridiculous to assume everything that happens is the work of someONE.
gravity is gravity, not the devil trying to pull things to hell.
thunder is thunder, not god bowling.
At least you've demonstrated a total lack of knowledge concerning the Phenominilogical argument or the argument of first cause. I'm not saying thunder is God bowling, that would be rediculous. Almost as rediculouse as arguing that matter spawned from nothing and one day decided to form a infinite series of complex orginisms.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
theory9 said:
...it doesn't rely on God doing every-fuckin'-thing...
If He didn't do it then who did?
sometimes water evaporates, sometimes someone drinks it.
I'm sure in your mind, you just made a point. I just don't seem to get what it is.
it was an analogy.
sometimes things happen due to nature, sometimes they happen due to someone's actions. it's ridiculous to assume everything that happens is the work of someONE.
gravity is gravity, not the devil trying to pull things to hell.
thunder is thunder, not god bowling.
At least you've demonstrated a total lack of knowledge concerning the Phenominilogical argument or the argument of first cause. I'm not saying thunder is God bowling, that would be rediculous. Almost as rediculouse as arguing that matter spawned from nothing and one day decided to form a infinite series of complex orginisms.
do you realize that you spelled ridiculous wrong twice within a few words of each other?
You make the assumption that because something is complex beyond your understanding then it must be the work of God.
Solar eclipses used to be considered the work of god, left handed people were considered witches, etc.
Now we know a bit more about the universe, and the people who really study science hardcore believe less and less in god. The world is moving towards secularism not because of amoral video games and movies, but because as a race humanity is beginning to demystify the universe through scientific study.
Give us a thousand years and I doubt anyone will believe in god anymore.
Bow ties are coool.
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fudge 4000+ posts
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Quote:
Chant said:
who created god?
God is eternal, the begining and the end.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Chant said:
who created god?
God is eternal, the begining and the end.
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Now we know a bit more about the universe, and the people who really study science hardcore believe less and less in god. The world is moving towards secularism not because of amoral video games and movies, but because as a race humanity is beginning to demystify the universe through scientific study.
Give us a thousand years and I doubt anyone will believe in god anymore.
Or maybe it's due to it being a trend. Evolution is the best example of a secular flagship taking up residence within the minds of everyone as fact when there's absolutely nothing to back it up. But they haven't dropped it because they like one explanation more than the other--They don't want to put up with the idea that there might be a God. The mere concept makes them up in arms--They're so uniformitarian in assuming there's no God before creating a theory that they doom themselves to narrow-mindedness and are inhospitable to the admittedly logical conclusion that there could be a creator. Then they dismiss the other theory (Intelligent Design) by saying it's ground in whimsical imagination, and even if the their theory is ground in less proof than that one, it's not based on some sort of "magical" oversite. The problem with this is the fact that they got it in their head that anything that's studied through scientific analysis (as if there was anything else) makes the cut of full blown scientific falsifiable/unfalsifiable theory. This is obviously not true since science can only study what's there, not create it, which is exactly what they propose by trying to pitch evolution.
Take a page out of your own book and stop blindly throwing your faith around.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Even by your standards, that still alludes to a God. However, it cannot be logically argued that there would be more than one God.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Even by your standards, that still alludes to a God. However, it cannot be logically argued that there would be more than one God.
you just missed the whole point. If there was any god, looking at ancient cultures it's more reasonable to believe in all of them then only one out of several dozen. You can no more prove Yaweh than I can prove Zeus and Odin and Baal.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
you just missed the whole point. If there was any god, looking at ancient cultures it's more reasonable to believe in all of them then only one out of several dozen. You can no more prove Yaweh than I can prove Zeus and Odin and Baal.
Perhaps. I can, however, prove more credibility and logicality(sp) for Yaweh than of those proclaimed gods.
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Zeus and Odin were way cooler Yaweh and his Dad, Baal. While Y and B were makin' dark clouds and thunder on Mtn. tops, Odin and Zeus were out bangin' earth girls and generally havin a good time. They weren't all pissy like those middle-eastern moron gods. I'd rather take my vacation in Greece or Germany. The girls don't have mustaches and they sun bathe topless! Which God would you prefer to worship? That tight ass Yaweh or the party boys, Zeus and Odin. 
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
everything has a beginning. one could argue that, if god(s) are real, since every culture developed their own pantheons then there are several gods who have had their day and then died.
Even by your standards, that still alludes to a God. However, it cannot be logically argued that there would be more than one God.
Sure it can. God Himself even admitted to the presence of other gods...several times in the bible. These were distinctly different references than passages addressed to 'false gods' or mere 'idols'. He did however assert that He overshadowed them all.
If karma's a bitch, it will be my bitch!
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