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I believe you meant to quote the original exchange and then argue: Quote:
Can we all agree that atrocities occurred, photos were taken and by the chain of command, Army or Marine Officers are responsible?
Correct?
Assuming that to be the case: No, I cannot agree that atrocities occurred.
According to wikipedia, "In general use, an atrocity ...designates a politically or ethnically motivated killing of civilians."
I haven't seen any evidence of ethnically motivated murders at Abu Garib or Gitmo. I've seen naked guys on wearing dog leashes and heard (now discredited) claims of books being flushed down a toilet.
I'm willing to call that wrong. I'm willing to call it illegal. I'm even willing to entertain that it was "Cruel and Unusual punishment."
But an atrocity? If a dog leash on a naked guy is an atrocity, what the hell can we call what the guys beheading civilians are doing?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I believe you meant to quote the original exchange and then argue: Quote:
Can we all agree that atrocities occurred, photos were taken and by the chain of command, Army or Marine Officers are responsible?
Correct?
Assuming that to be the case: No, I cannot agree that atrocities occurred.
According to wikipedia, "In general use, an atrocity ...designates a politically or ethnically motivated killing of civilians."
I haven't seen any evidence of ethnically motivated murders at Abu Garib or Gitmo. I've seen naked guys on wearing dog leashes and heard (now discredited) claims of books being flushed down a toilet.
I'm willing to call that wrong. I'm willing to call it illegal. I'm even willing to entertain that it was "Cruel and Unusual punishment."
But an atrocity? If a dog leash on a naked guy is an atrocity, what the hell can we call what the guys beheading civilians are doing?
Okay, so scratch atrocity and say the 'rape of children' or 'terrible cruelty'
Would one of those suffice? Pick a noun or noun clause G man! 
Last edited by magicjay38; 2005-09-01 9:26 PM.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
I notice you're backing away from your claim of "many," and now arguing even a "handfull" would have been noticed.
I wasn't backing away from my statement, I was avoiding having to look up the exact number so I quoted his "handful," then if he wants it backed with numbers than he needs to look it up as the originater of the word's usage in said debate.
It's a legal thing, you wouldn't understand unless you'd sat through that 6 hour traffic law course he attended.
Bow ties are coool.
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r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
I notice you're backing away from your claim of "many," and now arguing even a "handfull" would have been noticed.
I wasn't backing away from my statement, I was avoiding having to look up the exact number so I quoted his "handful," then if he wants it backed with numbers than he needs to look it up as the originater of the word's usage in said debate.
It's a legal thing, you wouldn't understand unless you'd sat through that 6 hour traffic law course he attended.
Hey, I didn't say that. Somebody did but it wasn't me!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by guards in both US Civilian Prisons, that rapes occurred. It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by child care workers in US civilian juvenile detention facilities, that rapes of children occurred.
And such a rape would be cruel, of course.
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
But that doesn't mean I can concede that, simply because there is a chain of command, that higher ups knew about it, either. As noted above, rapes of women and children occur in US civilian facilities without the knowledge of the wardens. So why would I automatically assume the higher ups knew in a military prison?
But to a certain extent, this is all beside the point. Even if we all agree that this occurred, there is simply no reason to release these photos. We would NEVER release the photo of a juvenile raped in a civilian detention facility, face obscured or not. So why would we do so here, except for cheap sensationalism?
Furthermore, when the release of the photo is likely to cause attacks on soldiers OR CIVILIANS who are NOT the perpetrators, I can see absolutely no merit to your argument that our troops would "deserve" retribution from Islamic terrorists.
With all due respect, and given some of your previous statements about our soldiers, its almost as if you HOPE a few more will be killed.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
With all due respect, and given some of your previous statements about our soldiers, its almost as if you HOPE a few more will be killed.
Thank you.
No I don't.
As for the rest, rules for civilians are different than rules for the military. I believe the UCMJ will support my point. You've got Lexus, look it up. Cite the code that proves me wrong.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Oh boy...what is an "Iraqi Patriot"?
Please tell me that's not the new buzzword for terrorist.
I'm curious about this myself.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by guards in both US Civilian Prisons, that rapes occurred. It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by child care workers in US civilian juvenile detention facilities, that rapes of children occurred.
And such a rape would be cruel, of course.
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
But that doesn't mean I can concede that, simply because there is a chain of command, that higher ups knew about it, either. As noted above, rapes of women and children occur in US civilian facilities without the knowledge of the wardens. So why would I automatically assume the higher ups knew in a military prison?
But to a certain extent, this is all beside the point. Even if we all agree that this occurred, there is simply no reason to release these photos. We would NEVER release the photo of a juvenile raped in a civilian detention facility, face obscured or not. So why would we do so here, except for cheap sensationalism?
Furthermore, when the release of the photo is likely to cause attacks on soldiers OR CIVILIANS who are NOT the perpetrators, I can see absolutely no merit to your argument that our troops would "deserve" retribution from Islamic terrorists.
With all due respect, and given some of your previous statements about our soldiers, its almost as if you HOPE a few more will be killed.
there is a different between raping one prisoner and gathering up a bunch of them and taking photos.
you can't keep the photos from your superior. therefore that implies that that someone higher up knew and approved it.
Bow ties are coool.
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Why must you always change the subject? Clearly, the point of the statement is that the victim feels no shame over the photo. Do you dispute that?
Acctually I missunderstood. I thought Phuk was the photographer. As far as everything else you said goes. Kiss my ass, I'm not going to be lectured about changing the subject by the guy who posts porn and discusses how much he likes to give head in teh deep thoughts forum. I really could give two shits as to what direction you want to steer the conversation.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
Well, how big of you to concede that.
Especially given the fact that the rapes, murder and other crimes have already been confirmed.
Which is a pretty good reason to release the pics, so you won't have to condcede "for the sake of argument". Which to me sounds as if you're skeptical this occured at all.
Everything is funny as long as it is happening to somebody else. --Will Rogers
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I don't think anybody could have predicted that these people would .. try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile. - Condoleeza Rice
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wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Why must you always change the subject? Clearly, the point of the statement is that the victim feels no shame over the photo. Do you dispute that?
Acctually I missunderstood. I thought Phuk was the photographer. As far as everything else you said goes. Kiss my ass, I'm not going to be lectured about changing the subject by the guy who posts porn and discusses how much he likes to give head in teh deep thoughts forum. I really could give two shits as to what direction you want to steer the conversation.
All you have to dispute me are personal attacks. Maybe you noticed those don't bother me much. So, I guess you have nothing to contribute to the topic anyway.
As for giving head in the Deep Thoughts forum, shit Monkeyman, I thought this was the Deep Throats forum!
Have another Banana!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
theory9 said:
Quote:
MisterJLA said:
Oh boy...what is an "Iraqi Patriot"?
Please tell me that's not the new buzzword for terrorist.
I'm curious about this myself.
I just wanted to see if you're paying attention!
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
you can't keep the photos from your superior. therefore that implies that that someone higher up knew and approved it.
On what do you base that conclusion?
Soldiers aren't stripped searched every day. If one or two take pictures, expecially with one of the current crop of small digital or disposible cameras, how are their superiors going to find out?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
you can't keep the photos from your superior. therefore that implies that that someone higher up knew and approved it.
On what do you base that conclusion?
Soldiers aren't stripped searched every day. If one or two take pictures, expecially with one of the current crop of small digital or disposible cameras, how are their superiors going to find out?
The Iraqi Patriot.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
you can't keep the photos from your superior. therefore that implies that that someone higher up knew and approved it.
On what do you base that conclusion?
Soldiers aren't stripped searched every day. If one or two take pictures, expecially with one of the current crop of small digital or disposible cameras, how are their superiors going to find out?
common sense, g-man.
Bow ties are coool.
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But "common sense" would also tell us, as noted above, that people commit crimes at other workplaces without their superiors knowing.
The bottom line is that you want to believe this, because it ties into your own suspicions about the military and/or the Bush administration. What you're calling common sense is more wishful thinking.
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Conservatives tend to avoid logic. When asked a question that deviates from there version of reality, they change the subject. You can see this from Rush on down to G-man.
This is my favorite G-man posting on this thread. It's only after 2 or 3 previous disputes on semantics.
It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by guards in both US Civilian Prisons, that rapes occurred. It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by child care workers in US civilian juvenile detention facilities, that rapes of children occurred.
And such a rape would be cruel, of course.
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
Well, lucky me! He concedes that which was never in dispute.
But that doesn't mean I can concede that, simply because there is a chain of command, that higher ups knew about it, either. As noted above, rapes of women and children occur in US civilian facilities without the knowledge of the wardens. So why would I automatically assume the higher ups knew in a military prison?
It doesn't matter! They are responsible for the conduct of soldiers under their command. They may not have known it BUT THEY HAD A DUTY TO KNOW. Under military justice their ignorance does not excuse them.
But to a certain extent, this is all beside the point. Even if we all agree that this occurred, there is simply no reason to release these photos. We would NEVER release the photo of a juvenile raped in a civilian detention facility, face obscured or not. So why would we do so here, except for cheap sensationalism?
The question of the topic is why are they being suppressed? What is appropriate in a civil society does not count in a nation at war. War is politics by other means? Politics is the only reason the images are suppressed.
Furthermore, when the release of the photo is likely to cause attacks on soldiers OR CIVILIANS who are NOT the perpetrators, I can see absolutely no merit to your argument that our troops would "deserve" retribution from Islamic terrorists.
Now he throws in a lie, just to further obscure the situation. I never said that. Someone may have, but it wasn't me. But this is just a warm up for the character assasination and lies that follow.
With all due respect, and given some of your previous statements about our soldiers, its almost as if you HOPE a few more will be killed.
So let's finish off with a character assasination. I don't wish death or injury upon anyone! But he implies that I do. It's simply not true.
These are some of the rhetorical devices commonly used by right-wingers. Don't let them get away with it. Ignore their diversions, lies, charcter assasanations and other fallacious tricks of rhetoric. Make them stick to the subject and hold their feet to the fire. Expose them for the small minded cowards they truly are.
Last edited by magicjay38; 2005-09-02 4:59 PM.
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Quote:
So let's finish off with a character assasination. I don't wish death or injury upon anyone! But he implies that I do. It's simply not true.
I'm glad to hear that. However, in the past, on other threads, you've made comments that you don't support the troops and feel that their willing participation in the military makes them culpable, etc. That was what I referring to (see the "given your previous statements" remark).
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Quote:
The question of the topic is why are they being suppressed? What is appropriate in a civil society does not count in a nation at war. War is politics by other means? Politics is the only reason the images are suppressed.
That's the central dispute of the thread, isn't it?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
So let's finish off with a character assasination. I don't wish death or injury upon anyone! But he implies that I do. It's simply not true.
I'm glad to hear that. However, in the past, on other threads, you've made comments that you don't support the troops and feel that their willing participation in the military makes them culpable, etc. That was what I referring to (see the "given your previous statements" remark).
I said that 'support the troops' is a meaningless statement. As a taxpayer I support the troops as much as anyone.
I said they were responsible for getting themselves into the mess they're in. It's that volunteer thing - remember? Culpability, while similar, has a negative connotation attached to it. In either case, it's a long way from wishing them dead.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
The question of the topic is why are they being suppressed. What is appropriate in a civil society does not count in a nation at war. War is politics by other means? Politics is the only reason the images are suppressed.
That's the central dispute of the thread, isn't it?
You agree that the images are being suppressed for for political purposes? Yes or no?
If not, please clarify your question. I'm not sure I understand.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Conservatives tend to avoid logic. When asked a question that deviates from there version of reality, they change the subject. You can see this from Rush on down to G-man.
This is my favorite G-man posting on this thread. It's only after 2 or 3 previous disputes on semantics.
It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by guards in both US Civilian Prisons, that rapes occurred. It isn't inconceivable, given that rapes are sometimes committed by child care workers in US civilian juvenile detention facilities, that rapes of children occurred.
And such a rape would be cruel, of course.
So I am willing to concede, for the sake of argument, that rapes, cruelty and/or other crimes have occurred, yes.
Well, lucky me! He concedes that which was never in dispute.
But that doesn't mean I can concede that, simply because there is a chain of command, that higher ups knew about it, either. As noted above, rapes of women and children occur in US civilian facilities without the knowledge of the wardens. So why would I automatically assume the higher ups knew in a military prison?
It doesn't matter! They are responsible for the conduct of soldiers under their command. They may not have known it BUT THEY HAD A DUTY TO KNOW. Under military justice their ignorance does not excuse them.
But to a certain extent, this is all beside the point. Even if we all agree that this occurred, there is simply no reason to release these photos. We would NEVER release the photo of a juvenile raped in a civilian detention facility, face obscured or not. So why would we do so here, except for cheap sensationalism?
The question of the topic is why are they being suppressed? What is appropriate in a civil society does not count in a nation at war. War is politics by other means? Politics is the only reason the images are suppressed.
Furthermore, when the release of the photo is likely to cause attacks on soldiers OR CIVILIANS who are NOT the perpetrators, I can see absolutely no merit to your argument that our troops would "deserve" retribution from Islamic terrorists.
Now he throws in a lie, just to further obscure the situation. I never said that. Someone may have, but it wasn't me. But this is just a warm up for the character assasination and lies that follow.
With all due respect, and given some of your previous statements about our soldiers, its almost as if you HOPE a few more will be killed.
So let's finish off with a character assasination. I don't wish death or injury upon anyone! But he implies that I do. It's simply not true.
These are some of the rhetorical devices commonly used by right-wingers. Don't let them get away with it. Ignore their diversions, lies, charcter assasanations and other fallacious tricks of rhetoric. Make them stick to the subject and hold their feet to the fire. Expose them for the small minded cowards they truly are.
Poor Majicjay. He tries so hard. 
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Let's give him an "A" for effort!
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Since neither of you has said anything to dispute my arguments, I can assume you have none. Once again, lacking a logical reponse you turn to personal attack. Poor T9, consorting with Pariah So when's the wedding? 
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
pederast.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/blogban3.jpg) [/center] [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/jlamiska.jpg) [/center]
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
pederast.
What's a pederast, BSAMS?
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Jay, at this point, it seems as if the thread has gone all the way back to the beginning. Essentially, the thread boils down to two sides: There's the "left" side of the Board, which argues:
- Releasing the photos would help expose corruption
- Releasing the photos would help drum up opposition to the war
There's the "right" side of the board and, in this case, most of the "moderate" side of the board, which argues:
- The case is already being investigated and prosecuted without the release of the photos
- We never release photos of sex crime victims; why start now?
- The release of the photos will give terrorists and their supporters an excuse to riot and/or other retaliate, thereby endangering both our troops and civilians
Both sides have put forth their justifications. At this point, we just covering the same ground over and over. At some point, that gets boring. So, with all due respect, unless you have something new to discuss, I really have better things to do than keep repeating the same arguments about this ad nauseaum.
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I jumped from the first page to this page. The photos obviously haven't been released....?
I refuse to pass judgment on the conduct apparently set out in the photographs until I see them for myself. Thus far we have speculation and second hand information.
Isn't a refusal to release the photographs, without stating which officers are involved so as not to prejudice the investigation, and with the prisoners' faces blanked out so as to protect their identities, simply censorship?
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That's discussed elsewhere in the thread, but briefly: the photos allegedly involve juvenile victims. The US Court system has long held that photos of sexual abuse of juveniles, even with blanked out faces, etc., is not appropriate for various reasons. THe US press has a longstanding policy not to air or release such photos either, for similar reasons.
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
I can understand that and agree with it. But are all of the photographs of minors?
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
the G-man said:
Are the offenders being investigated and/or punished?
Sure sounds like it.
NY Post:
Army Pfc. Lynndie England, whose smiling poses in photos of detainee abuse at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison made her the face of the scandal, was convicted yesterday by a military jury on six of seven counts.
England, 22, was found guilty of one count of conspiracy, four counts of maltreating detainees and one count of committing an indecent act. She was acquitted on a second conspiracy count.
The jury of five male Army officers took two hours to reach its verdict. Her case now moves to the sentencing phase, which will be heard by the same jury beginning today. The former chicken-factory worker faces a maximum 10 years in prison. England, wearing her dark green dress uniform, stood at attention as the verdict was read by the jury foreman. She showed no emotion afterward.
Asked for comment after the verdict, defense lawyer Capt. Jonathan Crisp said, "The only reaction I can say is, 'I understand.' "
England's trial is the last for a group of nine Army reservists charged with mistreating prisoners at Abu Ghraib in Iraq, a scandal that badly damaged the United States' image in the Muslim world despite quick condemnation of the abuse by President Bush.
Prosecutors used graphic photos of England to support their contention that England was a key figure in the abuse conspiracy. One photo shows England holding a naked detainee on a leash. In others, she smiles and points to prisoners in humiliating poses.
The conspiracy acquittal came on a count pertaining to the leash incident; she was found guilty of a maltreatment count stemming from the incident.
And, amazingly enough, they were able to get a conviction withOUT splashing more photos all over the media and enraging the Arab world.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14
Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
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Banned from the DCMBs since 2002. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 15,367 Likes: 14 |
Non sequitur. The jury would only be considering the facts relevant to England's misconduct.
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2
Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 53,734 Likes: 2 |
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801
terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
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terrible podcaster 15000+ posts
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 17,801 |
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203
betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
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betrayal and collapse 5000+ posts
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,203 |
...or so the Germans would have you believe!
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
For some reason I take no satisfaction in Private England's demise. Her commanding officer was the scoundral in all this.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
War PornographyUS soldiers trade grisly photos of dead and mutilated Iraqis for access to amateur porn. The press is strangely silent.
By Chris Thompson Published: Wednesday, September 21, 2005  If you want to see the true face of war, go to the amateur porn Web site NowThatsFuckedUp.com . For almost a year, American soldiers stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan have been taking photographs of dead bodies, many of them horribly mutilated or blown to pieces, and sending them to Web site administrator Chris Wilson. In return for permission to post these images, Wilson gives the soldiers free access to his site. American soldiers have been using the pictures of disfigured Iraqi corpses as currency to buy pornography. At Wilson's Web site, you can see an Arab man's face sliced off and placed in a bowl filled with blood. Another man's head, his face crusted with dried blood and powder burns, lies on a bed of gravel. A man in a leather coat who apparently tried to run a military checkpoint lies slumped in the driver's seat of a car, his head obliterated by gunfire, the flaps of skin from his neck blooming open like rose petals. Six men in beige fatigues, identified as US Marines, laugh and smile for the camera while pointing at a burned, charcoal-black corpse lying at their feet. The captions that accompany these images, which were apparently written by soldiers who posted them, laugh and gloat over the bodies. The person who posted a picture of a corpse lying in a pool of his own brains and entrails wrote, "What every Iraqi should look like." The photograph of a corpse whose jaw has apparently rotted away, leaving a gaping set of upper teeth, bears the caption "bad day for this dude." One person posted three photographs of corpses lying in the street and titled his collection "DIE HAJI DIE." This could become a public-relations catastrophe. The Bush administration claims such sympathy for American war dead that officials banned the media from photographing flag-draped coffins being carried off cargo planes. Government officials and American media pundits have repeatedly denounced the al-Jazeera network for airing grisly footage of Iraqi war casualties and American prisoners of war. The legal fight over whether to release the remaining photographs of atrocities at Abu Ghraib has dragged on for months, with Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Meyers arguing that the release of such images will inflame the Muslim world and drive untold numbers to join al-Qaeda. But none of these can compare with the prospect of American troops casually bartering pictures of suffering and death for porn.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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