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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Mxy : While I agree with you in principal, I think there is a difference of opinion and taste that has to be taken into account. Just because something is "original" does not, a good story make. And, just because something is similiar to what has gone on before, does not make it neccessarily crap. However, I think it comes down to differing tastes. It's not the angle of The Bat-Man being insane that turns me off of this material. It's Miller's writing. It's not the concept, it's the narrative.
And, in the end, I think it comes down to personal opinion. For some....and especially those that buy into or enjoy the faux-noir that Miller fails to capture....this will be a gem among stones. For those that want a good story, and don't neccessarily enjoy getting metaphors cigarette-burned across their mental tastes buds with haphazard prose, it's not a very appealing comic. And, for those that must have the "Prep-Time-God with Kung-Fu Grip" Bat-Man....well, I'm pretty sure they'll gnaw their own tongues off in despair...
The narrative really doesn't annoy me at all, in fact it's one of the aspects I consider original (for this type of comic, at least). I think it gives the story a great atmosphere, similar to the one in Burton's movies (if there's one good thing from the two movies, that's the atmosphere). It enforces the main point, which is the character's sanity or lack thereof, and, for me, makes this take on the character feel RIGHT for the first time. I don't know about you, but for me the repetitive aspect that you mock resembles actual thought much more than perfect grammar and carefully planned sentences.
Also, what does an unusual narrative have to do with the quality of the story? Rorschach's narration was all broken up and crazy as shit, but the plot behind it was brilliant.
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
I wasn't mentioning you in particular, just the majority who decided that there's nothing wrong with scaling sky-scrapers in a Bat-suit.
Anyway, while your description is interesting enough, I don't think it was very accomplished. i.e. If that's exactly what Miller meant, he did a horrible job of showing it. Moore/Morrison/DKR-Miller did it a whole lot better.
What are you talking about? People are bitching that he's too crazy and that the narrative is too fucked up.
I think Moore only hinted the character's insanity, but never expanded on it much (I think that's why he hates Killing Joke). When did Morrison ever touch the subject? Not on JLA. I'd be interested in reading that.
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want some clarification though: Are you saying that Miller's trying to say that this Batman isn't as crazy as the in-continuity one and therefore, his actions are more......Normal/Sane?
No, I'm saying the in-continuity one doesn't make sense: his actions (insane) aren't consequent with his behaviour (sane). This one is consequent in every way: crazy actions equal a fucked up psyche (hence the narrative). The regular Bat-Man runs over some cop and keeps a straight face and the narrative justifies his actions; this one is laughing like a maniac the whole time.
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The conscience of the rkmbs! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
What are you talking about? People are bitching that he's too crazy and that the narrative is too fucked up.
Because they think he's not crazy in the first place. It never occurs to anyone that maybe--Just maybe he is crazy.
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When did Morrison ever touch the subject? Not on JLA. I'd be interested in reading that.
You didn't read Arkham Asylum?
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No, I'm saying the in-continuity one doesn't make sense: his actions (insane) aren't consequent with his behaviour (sane). This one is consequent in every way: crazy actions equal a fucked up psyche (hence the narrative). The regular Bat-Man runs over some cop and keeps a straight face and the narrative justifies his actions; this one is laughing like a maniac the whole time.
I'm prolly nit-picking here, but I don't know if that's fair. I mean, there's many different types of disorders. Some are blatant (All-Star Batman), others are more subtle (continuity Batman).
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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this david bowie obsession is tearing the boards apart!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
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Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
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This David Bowie...is he related to a certain Mr. Jim Morrisson of The Doors fame?
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
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Jim Morrison wrote The Bat-Man?  Quote:
When did Morrison ever touch the subject?
Arkham Asylum GN. Though even Morrison admits that the book was only half realized. He and Dave Mckean never quite fully clicked and the project is far less than it could have been. Some interesting takes, though. Liked the Two-Face scenes.
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I think it gives the story a great atmosphere, similar to the one in Burton's movies (if there's one good thing from the two movies, that's the atmosphere).
Agreed. The Burton movies have some truly definitive atmosphere. However, I think you and I are interpreting the atmosphere in two different ways. All I'm getting from it is, as an earlier review stated, simply Sin City in a Batsuit. If that's the part you enjoy, then, it's an obvious factor. I don't feel the same atmosphere in this that I got in Burton's, though. Burton's, to me, was like a cartoon that grew ancient mold on its edges. Somber, bleak, and serious enough to offset Nicholson's over-the-top Joker. Miller's is akin to a crime noir novel of the 'Slam Bradley'-ish 30's gritty detective tales. Not my cup of tea.
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It enforces the main point, which is the character's sanity or lack thereof, and, for me, makes this take on the character feel RIGHT for the first time. I don't know about you, but for me the repetitive aspect that you mock resembles actual thought much more than perfect grammar and carefully planned sentences.
I would not discount your opinion or taste in this. I'm glad you dug it. I understand what Miller was trying to do with the dialogue and narrative. He was trying to get me into the mindset of the world of the Bat. Fine. But, it just didn't work for me. I buy into subtlety and slight of words faster than being beaten over the head with repetitive narrative, or, having other characters tell me the Bat-Man is "crazy". If he had just left it with the mad bastard running over the cops, or, slapping Dick around a bit, cool. But, instead he did that, and then took up the next ten pages forcing it down my throat with repetitive dialogue. It's like, I got it in the first two pages. The rest was me waiting for the story to move on.
I also think you and I are talking about two different kinds of "crazy". One is the type that's reserved for characters like the Joker or Wolverine. The maniacal laughter, the adrenaline engine of mowing bad guys down with claws, guns, or cars. Then, there is the more subtle, calm type of madness. The type that Keaton showed me in the Burton movies. This is, to me, the more realistic style of 'crazy'. A seriously disturbed individual...I mean, the real kind....doesn't go around cackling and trying to prove to the world he's a nutjob. He doesn't try to sell it, because...nine times out of ten...he's not thoroughly aware of his own mis-wiring. It's the contrast of his (to him) seemingly normal actions or thoughts as compared to the rest of society that sets him apart. That's the kind of crazy that Keaton sold me on, and, the kind that I buy into when it comes to The Bat-Man. Keaton's character spoke volumes more to me about being "crazy" just with his haunting, silent stare, than anything Miller has ever done. I know...movie, comic book. Apples, oranges. Still, you get my point.
But, don't get me wrong. At no point am I disagreeing with you about the Bats character. I've always assumed it was understood by talented writers that anyone that does what Wayne does has to have a few neurological skip-paths. I've always just preferred it....or enjoyed it....in the more calm, intimidating manner that Keaton showed me. I really don't care if Miller wants to show me the flipside to that. That's fine. It's the story, and, narrative itself that fell flat for me.
Quote:
Also, what does an unusual narrative have to do with the quality of the story? Rorschach's narration was all broken up and crazy as shit, but the plot behind it was brilliant.
Quite alot, in execution of the story. Rorschach's narration was perfect for his character, because, there was the contrast of other characters, and other narration, and other dialogue that allowed it to stand as strange, obtuse, and oft-kilter. It defined him, the mood, and the world he perceived.
With this, the entire world...the dialogue, the narrative, everything...is of the same voice. The same disjointed rambling that attempts to beat you over the head with "mood". It's just overkill, in my opinion, and, detracts from the story as a whole.
But, again, understand my dislike is not the character, or the interpretation of the character (although I would have preferred a truly chilling, and, psychotic character, as opposed to a testosterone clown), it's the way the story itself is written and presented. Twenty-two pages in a car? Miller's wasting my time...
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The storytelling sucked. I don't know who could possible claim that Batman was sane, but I always saw him as functionallyinsane. Miller just loses me in his desired storytelling motif. It's beyond cliche noir. It's crap.
Last edited by theDRUNKENdoctor; 2005-09-24 4:35 AM.
What the fuck do you expect here? I'm drunk!
I can barely see the screen.
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
You didn't read Arkham Asylum?
Yeah, but I'm thinking it's time to give it a re-read...
Quote:
I'm prolly nit-picking here, but I don't know if that's fair. I mean, there's many different types of disorders. Some are blatant (All-Star Batman), others are more subtle (continuity Batman).
I'm no The Bat-Man expert, but other than obvious acts of dressing up as a bat, building bat-shaped equipment (?!??!?!), and endangering minors, what actions or thoughts that could be interpreted as less than sane do we see in the monthly comics? Not only do the fans think he's sane and should stay like that, the WRITERS seem to feel the same, because he's always so damn rational and thoughtful. It's like it's impossible for the writers to consider that he might be losing his mind, because that would mean that he's not in control of something (he'd have to be unaware of his insanity to be insane), and that's simply unacceptable to them: he's in our lunchboxes, so he MUST be perfect.
The contradiction comes in the fact that through this excessive sanity the absurd actions I mentioned before are justified ("yeah, I shaped my boomerang like a bat because of aerodynamics"), and that's negating what should be the nature of the character.
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devil-lovin' Bat-Man 15000+ posts
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Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
this david bowie obsession is tearing the boards apart!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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1. You do not talk about snarf. 7500+ posts
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1. You do not talk about snarf. 7500+ posts
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All-Star Batman sucks - killing the police, flying batmobiles.....yet no Truth-lasers!
btw, Im Not Mister Mxypltk, you are much too clever by half!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Agreed. The Burton movies have some truly definitive atmosphere. However, I think you and I are interpreting the atmosphere in two different ways. All I'm getting from it is, as an earlier review stated, simply Sin City in a Batsuit. If that's the part you enjoy, then, it's an obvious factor. I don't feel the same atmosphere in this that I got in Burton's, though. Burton's, to me, was like a cartoon that grew ancient mold on its edges. Somber, bleak, and serious enough to offset Nicholson's over-the-top Joker. Miller's is akin to a crime noir novel of the 'Slam Bradley'-ish 30's gritty detective tales. Not my cup of tea.
Honestly, I see very little of Sin City in this comic, and none of it is the atmosphere. It's difficult to tell what makes me think of Burton in this comic, but I think it's the sense of insecurity given by the fact that Gotham is a city where everyone is nuts. The cops with the bikes and the machine guns seemed like something directly lifted from a Burton movie, to me. The city itself is nuts (in an over the top fashion), and it breeds beings insane in different degrees.
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I would not discount your opinion or taste in this. I'm glad you dug it. I understand what Miller was trying to do with the dialogue and narrative. He was trying to get me into the mindset of the world of the Bat. Fine. But, it just didn't work for me. I buy into subtlety and slight of words faster than being beaten over the head with repetitive narrative, or, having other characters tell me the Bat-Man is "crazy". If he had just left it with the mad bastard running over the cops, or, slapping Dick around a bit, cool. But, instead he did that, and then took up the next ten pages forcing it down my throat with repetitive dialogue. It's like, I got it in the first two pages. The rest was me waiting for the story to move on.
But see, that's what I like so much about this comic. Miller isn't afraid to hide the fact that the bat is nuts like every other writer. In a DCU comic Bats may run over cars and maybe even slap Dick, but he'd always keep a straight face, and then justify his actions in some way ("I did it for your own good, Dick"). The consequence is that for the first time The Bat-Man is comfortable with himself, and I find that refreshing.
The subtle angle (applied by Miller himself in other comics) is perfectly valid, but I think that, after all these years, it's gotten very old, and I, for one, could never stand the character like that (unless it's written by Morrison. Morrison can make that boring straight faced fuck look cool).
About the story moving slowly, well, the long scene in the car is character development, right there. Fucked up character development. Miller has 12 issues: he's taking his time and setting things up properly. If he hadn't done that scene, people would be complaining in later issues that Dick bonded with Bats too fast. To me, the slap/regret/acceptance sequence that begins around the middle and ends in the last panel is vital to the story Miller is telling.
Quote:
I also think you and I are talking about two different kinds of "crazy". One is the type that's reserved for characters like the Joker or Wolverine. The maniacal laughter, the adrenaline engine of mowing bad guys down with claws, guns, or cars. Then, there is the more subtle, calm type of madness. The type that Keaton showed me in the Burton movies. This is, to me, the more realistic style of 'crazy'. A seriously disturbed individual...I mean, the real kind....doesn't go around cackling and trying to prove to the world he's a nutjob. He doesn't try to sell it, because...nine times out of ten...he's not thoroughly aware of his own mis-wiring. It's the contrast of his (to him) seemingly normal actions or thoughts as compared to the rest of society that sets him apart. That's the kind of crazy that Keaton sold me on, and, the kind that I buy into when it comes to The Bat-Man. Keaton's character spoke volumes more to me about being "crazy" just with his haunting, silent stare, than anything Miller has ever done. I know...movie, comic book. Apples, oranges. Still, you get my point.
If the Joker and other characters can pull off being over the top, I don't see why Bats can't. But I see your point. Has the type of insanity you prefer ever been convincingly portrayed in the comic, though?
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Quite alot, in execution of the story. Rorschach's narration was perfect for his character, because, there was the contrast of other characters, and other narration, and other dialogue that allowed it to stand as strange, obtuse, and oft-kilter. It defined him, the mood, and the world he perceived.
With this, the entire world...the dialogue, the narrative, everything...is of the same voice. The same disjointed rambling that attempts to beat you over the head with "mood". It's just overkill, in my opinion, and, detracts from the story as a whole.
But everyone IS insane: Vicky Vale, like Wayne, is a child of Gotham who's crazy of ambition. Alfred, as an outsider, is the only sane one. He never narrates himself but, if you noticed, the third person narration about him was oddly traditional (proving this is all intentional in Miller's part). Dick is another outsider who's been violently introduced to Gotham: we're witnessing his transformation into a Gothamite.
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Doog the MIGHTY 10000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
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10000+ posts
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MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I just pissed myself. 
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Fused said:
I just pissed myself.
But what'd you think of the comic strip?
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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