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 I recently read the latest Batman crossover, War Crimes. Over all, it wasn't a bad epilogue to War Games. The story had a good flow to it (when Gabrych was writing) and the subplot with the Joker was brilliant. However, after discussing the story with a friend, I have to ask the question: Did this story criminally redefine Batman's character? To review, the main crime revealed in the this story was that Spoiler's death was actually caused by a conscious decision of Dr. Leslie Thompkins. The Batman editors decided that she would betray Bruce by not saving Spoiler in order send home a point to him. Setting aside for a moment the terrible misrepresntation of Leslie's character, the question is: How would Batman respond to a betrayal of this magnitued? My friend defines Leslie as Batman's "mother," and Alfred as Batman's "father." He believes that they instilled in him his moral code that dictates his actions as Batman. If one of his "parents" were to break that code, he thinks Batman would do one of two things: 1) Batman would hunt down the Joker and kill him. Since his "mother" doesn't see a value in innocent life, why should he see any value in criminal life. A new Batman would emerge as judge, jury, and executioner.
2) Bruce would quit. He would see that there is no point in carrying out this war if he can't protect the innocent from those who are supposed to help them, especially when that person is someone who raised him. There would be no point in fighting evil on the streets if it can't be defeated in one's own home. In War Crimes, Batman seemingly shrugged off Leslie's betrayal. He confronted her in Africa, where she was hiding, helping those who needed medical care. After a short discussion, where she admitted her wrong, and voiced her own disgust with herself, Batman told her to never return to Gotham, and to never practice medicine again. Batman's response was cold, and in a way, very evil. Instructing a doctor to never practice her trade because she chose to withhold medical care from a patient seems just, and yet, it denies the world of a great doctor who would be looking to atone for her sin for the rest of her life. Batman took away her ability to atone. For the purpose of this discussion (Batman's reaction), let's assume that Leslie really did snap. Would she have done this? Was this ever a part of her character? No. I don't see it. The Leslie who has been written up until this moment was the most compassionate person in Bruce's life. It wasn't Alfred who taught Bruce compassion, it was Leslie. She would never let anyone die, not even the lowliest of criminals. To her, all life was sacred. End of story. That said, I can see why my friend thinks that Batman's reaction to Leslie's actions is a deconstruction of his own character. If the most compassionate person he knows loses her compassion at a critical time, and not against a criminal, but against an innocent, wouldn't that make Batman snap? Wouldn't that make him quit or kill? On the other hand, I can see how he could grow past that, how he could punish Leslie in this manner. He's not a child. He has developed his own code, and damn anyone who breaks it. Leslie broke it, but she is still his "mother," so how can he turn her in. Yet, she cannot be a doctor anymore, for doctors show compassion to everyone. What are your thoughts on this? Is there a deconstruction of charter(s) here, or are we taking things too seriously by even discussing this? After all, it is just a comic. Or is that the problem, that the writers treat it as just a comic, and not as a serious work of graphic ficion? So many questions...
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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First off, I should note that I reject one of the original premises of this review, namely, that Leslie and Alfred are Bruce's "parents," or parent figures. Bruce's parents are Thomas and Martha Wayne. Their death created Batman. It was the loss of even parent substitutes that, to a large extent, allowed Bruce to engage in his obsessive quest to become Batman. Had Leslie and Alfred acted as actual parents to Bruce he would have probably been able to adjust to the loss of the Wayne's and grown up well adjusted. Also, as an aside, I really, really, hate this whole Byrne-like "Retcon" that says Leslie was anything other than a social worker who happened to show kindness to Bruce for a brief period in his life. But that's another review. In regard to your argument that Quote:
After a short discussion, where she admitted her wrong, and voiced her own disgust with herself, Batman told her to never return to Gotham, and to never practice medicine again.
Batman's response was cold, and in a way, very evil. Instructing a doctor to never practice her trade because she chose to withhold medical care from a patient seems just, and yet, it denies the world of a great doctor who would be looking to atone for her sin for the rest of her life. Batman took away her ability to atone.
If anything, Bruce's reaction was too kind. Leslie admitted to being a murderer. The Batman brings murderers to justice. He could have, and should have, had her arrested the same as the Penguin, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze or any other killer he confronts, and let the criminal justice system decide what to do with her, a system which would have, most likely, both prevented her from practicing medicine AND locked her up in prison.
Using your logic, Bruce should have let Mr. Freeze go, to give the world a brillian scientist who might have atoned. He should let Harvey Dent go, to give the world a brilliant attorney. But he doesn't, and not just because those people are crazy. But because he's not the one to judge that.
You're right that the ending did harm to Bruce's character, but for the oppopsite reasons you state.
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All right, but there's one thing I don't quite get: what does this have to do with Hockey? I followed the front page headline with expectations in mind, dammit.
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Pay attention. I mentioned Mr. Freeze. He had "the hockey team from hell" in "Batman and Robin"
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Then I suggest the misleading frontage picture is replaced with this one: 
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That definitely was a "character assassination," yes.
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Quote:
PenWing said:
My friend defines Leslie as Batman's "mother," and Alfred as Batman's "father." He believes that they instilled in him his moral code that dictates his actions as Batman. If one of his "parents" were to break that code, he thinks Batman would do one of two things:
1) Batman would hunt down the Joker and kill him. Since his "mother" doesn't see a value in innocent life, why should he see any value in criminal life. A new Batman would emerge as judge, jury, and executioner.
2) Bruce would quit. He would see that there is no point in carrying out this war if he can't protect the innocent from those who are supposed to help them, especially when that person is someone who raised him. There would be no point in fighting evil on the streets if it can't be defeated in one's own home.
How old does your friend think Batman is? Seven? Eight?
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I don't think PenWings friend meant that Leslie Thompkins was Bruces mother per se! But she was a big influence in his life.
I think the writers wrote themselves into a corner on this one. It was way out of character for Thompkins to do what she did. And what the Kamphausen was/is Batman supposed to do about it without looking weak or hypocritical. Not a very well thought out idea.
And with regards to taking the story too seriously, PenWing - whats the point in reading if you're not going to take it seriously....or anything else for that matter!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Maybe, but Batman isn't a boy. He's a grown ass man. He's not going to go out and kill simply because someone who's had a big influence on his life does it. And he wouldn't just give up, either. He's a man who's made decisions and stuck to 'em, through good and bad, and he isn't exactly someone who defines himself through the actions of others, especially those who aren't even his real parents.
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I already posted a similar opinion on the Bat-boards but it was promptly deleted because of how it was written.
If I read correctly didn't Leslie "kill" Stephanie because she neglected to follow her hippocratic oath?
Voted "Biggest Waste Of Space" On The Bat-Boards For "Multiple Reasons" Jerry Falwell On Rudolph The Red-Nosed Reindeer:"Those hollywood, homosexual, jewish types making a show about a reindeer who is 'different' and just cant 'hide it'. Everyone knows if he tries hard enough he can convert himself to a normal, black-nosed reindeer." I am 95% addicted to Porn. What about you?
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Quote:
Anonymous One said:
I already posted a similar opinion on the Bat-boards but it was promptly deleted because of how it was written.
To be fair, you didn't have to say "Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus" every two sentences, even if it's true.
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Rob Inserts nail clippers into his anus!
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That's not it. That's not how you do it. Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus. I said every two sentences. That's TWO sentences. Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus. You have to learn how to do it right. Otherwise, you're gonna fail in everything you do. Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus.
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Shut up, dad! I don't need your approval! You're just a jealous old man who sees the dim reflection of his failed youth in the shiny metal surface of my glorious reign of evil!
P.S.
Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus.
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Any chance that Spoiler's death is a hoax?
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/blogban3.jpg) [/center] [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/jlamiska.jpg) [/center]
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HA! I get it!
I think War Crimes sucked.
Please note: I have not read War Crimes.
Thing is- I can’t spell or type. I spell so badly my spell check doesn’t even know what I was trying to spell. And I have five Eisners HAHAHAHHA!!
-Brian Michael Bendis
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WATCH OUT SNARF! I'VE BEEN TOLD THIS THREAD HAS SPOILERS!
Spoiler warning-blind community, sticking together
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Maybe, but Batman isn't a boy. He's a grown ass man. He's not going to go out and kill simply because someone who's had a big influence on his life does it. And he wouldn't just give up, either. He's a man who's made decisions and stuck to 'em, through good and bad, and he isn't exactly someone who defines himself through the actions of others, especially those who aren't even his real parents.
Wednesday, dear boy - my reply regarding Leslie Thompkin as a Mother figure was directed at G-String, who chose to take PenWings buddies theory at face value only.
The second part of my post was just regarding how crappy and ill thought out the story was. Being a BAtman fan for more than 25 years......sheet! I really would not know how Batman would react to such a betrayal without coming off looking weak.
If the writers had given the ramifications of this story some serious thought, we may have ended up with a turning point of Batmans career but instead we got a wishy washy ending.
Batman has been going real homo of late. especially in Omac/Wonder Woman.
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
I shit on Hogan!
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Yeah, he's a big bananaqueerish.
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If you ask Pariah, that means he likes The Who.
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DO you wanna be in my gang!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
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Quote:
ROY BATTY said:my reply regarding Leslie Thompkin as a Mother figure was directed at G-String, who chose to take PenWings buddies theory at face value only.
No. I was saying that I don't believe that anyone like Bruce Wayne, who is so obsessed with his dead mother that he dresses up as a bat and fights crime to avenge her, would consider any woman a mother or a mother figure on any level. Same thing for his father.
Even if you buy the post crisis Byrnish retcon that holds Leslie was more than a social worker who showed young Bruce kindness on the night his parents were murdered, to someone like Bruce Leslie and Alfred would be soldiers in his war, not parent figures.
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Quote:
Anonymous One said:
I already posted a similar opinion on the Bat-boards but it was promptly deleted because of how it was written.
I'd like to read you're annalysis of this over here, if you can find the time to write up the details.
Quote:
Anonymous One said:
If I read correctly didn't Leslie "kill" Stephanie because she neglected to follow her hippocratic oath?
Yeah, that's exactly what she did. She killed her, and she covered it up. Still, I wonder of denying medical care to a vigilante in Gotham during War Games would be looked as a crime after the fact. I bet a good attorney to get her off the hook, especially after what heppened in the other plot of War Crimes with the biased reporter.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
I said:
My friend defines Leslie as Batman's "mother," and Alfred as Batman's "father." He believes that they instilled in him his moral code that dictates his actions as Batman.
G-man, I never said they were "Bruce's" parents/parental figures. On some level, there is a difference. Alfred and Leslie are the reason Batman is sane. Well, if he can be considered sane. They are the people he looks to for emotional support. That's what my friend meant, and I agree with him on that point.
As for retconning Leslie's character, I've only known her as she has been over the last 10+ years. I was firsted introduced to her in The Animated Series. Based on that characterization, there is no way she could ever withhold medical care to anyone who is placed before her. She's too compassionate not to help. In the comic over the same time period, she's has the same personality.
Leslie has always voiced her discontent with Bruce's choice to be Batman, and with his decision to include others in his mission. However, she knew Stephanie, and she knew that Bruce did not approve of Stephanie's being Spoiler. To allow Stephanie to die as a way to send a message to Bruce is illogical, since Bruce has tried and failed numerous times to force Stephanie to retire her Spoiler identity. If Bruce didn't want Stephanie to be Spoiler, then how does killing her send a message to him that his mission needs to stop? He can't be held responsible for other people's choices, especially if he doesn't sanction their actions.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Son of Mxy said:
SPOILER DIES?!
Come to Papa - Papa spank!
Me No Rikey Rob, he's a banana queer!
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You know I just got back into the bat-titles and quit them at the same time. War Crimes and Games were not only crimes on Batman's character but on his fans.
The only thing I still read from the family is Gotham Central and thats not really a Bat-book.
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I think that might be a record.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
Quote:
Anonymous One said:
I already posted a similar opinion on the Bat-boards but it was promptly deleted because of how it was written.
To be fair, you didn't have to say "Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus" every two sentences, even if it's true.
I think I got banned for it too. But it was weeks after the post was made and that was the only thing I posted that was intentionally crude.
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Quote:
Anonymous One said:
I think I got banned for it too. But it was weeks after the post was made and that was the only thing I posted that was intentionally crude. Rob inserts nail clippers into his anus.
Rob would be an hypocrite if he said that was crude.
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and denial would make him a liar!
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