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Pig Iron said:

First, Privacy is every Americans' right. This is the same as illegal search and seizure (sp?).



The "right to privacy" is limited in numerous ways that have been enacted by legislatures and upheld by courts.

Bush was apparently acting under one of those sections of the law. See earlier posts.

This wasn't a case of random, widespread, spying on ordinary Americans. As noted in the articles it was limited to people who might be involved in terrorism.

Remember: we've actually found US citizens involved in terrorist plots.

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Second, Until you do something about a wide open border nothing in any new law makes any difference.



I sort of agree with you here. In fact, I've criticized Bush on several occasions here for not doing more on border security. That doesn't mean, however, that everything else is useless. As noted by the Attorney General the White House's actions did, in fact, foil some plots.

But you're right we need to do more...even though someone will, ironically enough, call that an invasion of privacy.

Also, as noted above, we've actually found that some of the terrorist plotters were US citizens. How would closing the border stop them?

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Third, we all know this goes on anyway--with or without permission and warrants, and always has. Warrants are only necessary if you want to take someone to court and build a case.



Well, not exactly. But if you think it goes on anyway, why are you PO'd at Bush for following precedent?

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Fourth, Bush is not an idiot..he is a calculating manipulator that plays the idiot--and very well.



I agree he isn't an idiot.

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Fifth, Agents checking on someone reading a book is rather silly, in context, to the actual threats facing the US if terorists really wanted to go into action.



Agents checking on someone's reading is a different issue. That was something that was specifically authorized by the Patriot Act and earlier legislation. That isn't what Bush did here.

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sixth, this is becoming fascism..democrat and rebublican..the dems are the pc police and the reps are the terrorist police.



How is it facism? As noted above, this was used in limited circumstances, against people making overseas calls, and regularly vetted by the government to make sure it wasn't overstepping its bounds. When do facists do any of that?

And even I, staunch opponent of "PC" think that calling Political Correctness "facism" is an incredibly simplistic and ridiculous interpretation of the concept.

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seventh, why are we still worried about goofy Iraq when we have 3 or more true threats in the world...the crazy ass in Iran is still publicly stating he wants to nuke israel and bring about the new messianic age....Heeellloooooooooo???



Yeah, I'd like to see Bush nuke the living shit out of Iraq too. But I'd assume we're going to let Israel finish that job. Besides, can you imagine what the "other side" would do if Bush now invaded Iraq?


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eighth, if you actually tighten airport security and watch the borders more closely you don't need all this bs....Americans police themselves pretty well...



Again, I agree with you for the most part.

On the other hand, let's look at one of the last times Bush tried to tighten the border, by requiring everyone to have a passport to go to and from Canada. Hardly facism there. You need a passport to go to England, why not Canada?

But what happened? Congress has a fit, the public had a fit and the proposal was dropped. So don't tell me that its simple to close the borders.

Also, as noted above, we've actually found that some of the terrorist plotters were US citizens. How would closing the border stop them?

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ninth, this is about power not about freedom and liberty and safety...if it was so many free thinking people wouldn't be questioning it.



Free thinking people question all sorts of things, right or wrong. That's part of what makes them free thinkers.

For example, a lot of free thinking people are against curbing immigration and tightening our borders. That's something you're in favor of. Should we abandon that effort because "free thinking people question it" and, by your reckoning, that makes it about "power"?

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and ten..G-Man and anyone else if you honestly don't see a problem with any of this..then you are blind and misguided and party puppets..just like many of my liberal counterparts...



I agreed with you on a couple of points. I guess that makes me a little less blind, misguided and puppety?

Seriously, if this was some sort of widespread program I'd have a bigger problem. But it isn't. If this was spying on political enemies like Clinton and Nixon did, I'd have a bigger problem with it. But it isn't. If this hadn't been vetted by various attorneys and given precedent by federal courts, I'd have a bigger problem with it. But it was.

The bottom line is that, at this point, it looks like this was legal.