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Quote:
the G-man said:
If they weren't immediately going along with it, that means they aren't "yes men." Which tends to discredit your theory that this was approved "because [Bush] said so."
I also notice you ignored the point about the Justice Department auditing the program and apparently not finding problems.
...
...
In general terms I think Ashcroft is considered very loyal to Bush. Not somebody who would agree with a Democrat easily.
You are mixing the data mining part of the program with the wiretapping. Are you saying they found no problems with the wiretapping part??? 
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
By all accounts this is a fairly narrowly tailored program. And, yet, the liberals--including you--are trotting out the tired old "Bush is Nazi" rants
Why shouldn't we? You've show two cartoons depicting Liberals as Terrorist Enablers.
Aren't they? I have yet to hear a strong case from the majoruty liberals that say we should be harder on teh terrorists that we should go after them more agressively. I've heard that we need to make sure they're comfortable in prison and that we shouldn't listen in to thier conversations. Infact we shouldn't even call them terrorists because that would hurt thier feelings, we should call them insurgents or even freedom fighters (and from some on the FAR left like Moore and Chomski, heroes and patriots).
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
By all accounts this is a fairly narrowly tailored program. And, yet, the liberals--including you--are trotting out the tired old "Bush is Nazi" rants
Why shouldn't we? You've show two cartoons depicting Liberals as Terrorist Enablers.
Aren't they?
Well, then I guess we can sit here and just start calling each other names.
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It might be a funnier, or at least more true, point if WBAM hadn't gone on to support his "name calling" by noting the following Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:I have yet to hear a strong case from the majoruty liberals that say we should be harder on teh terrorists that we should go after them more agressively. I've heard that we need to make sure they're comfortable in prison and that we shouldn't listen in to thier conversations. Infact we shouldn't even call them terrorists because that would hurt thier feelings, we should call them insurgents or even freedom fighters (and from some on the FAR left like Moore and Chomski, heroes and patriots).
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No, it's hilarious as is.
And your post makes it even funnier. You guys with your name calling/bitching about being called names. You crack me up.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
I have nothing to add to this topic but I enjoy ragging on people
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Wednesday used to add alot, but I don't think I've seen anything substanitive from him in quite some time.
And please don't bother Jim with teh substance of my post, clearly it's not something he wants to adress. It could be he has no acctuall argument against it save to mischaracterose it by leaving out that wich doesn't support his characterization. YOU know that if I were to say to someone "You're a communist" that would be nothing more than name calling, but if I were to say "You're a communist because you ascribe to the teachings of Marx and Lennin" then even if you were to still try and label that name calling, at least it would be accurate. Much of the left has demonstrably done things that I believe has enabled the terrorists, but instead of defending thier acctions they say it's wrong to question the further implications and unless you describe thier every acction as the highest form of patriotism, they simply won't engage you in conversation. Fortunately, while I agknolledge that having these conversations with liberals is frusterating I can take comfort in knowing that other people are listening to the national debate as well. Hopefully in elections to come there will simply be less liberals to worry about.
Although the worst case scenareo is just that. We know now that if it weren't for Gorrelic wall 9-11 could have been prevented. While it's not entirely fair to blame her because of hidsight we can deffinately question those who even with the bennifit of hindsight want to resurrect the wall, then well, I think there's a cause for finger pointing. Speaking of finger pointing, you'll notice that while teh left's primary complaint is that Bush is doing TOO MUCH to prevent terrorism, JJ has allready poined a pre-emtive finger at Bush saying that future attacks, (wich JJ seems to be expecting now) will happen on Bush's watch and that it would be wrong to even insinuate that the lefts coddling of "Musilm freedom fighters" could be to blame (lets not forget that it was specifically "Red States" that were last threatened so they're not allone in thier hatred for Bush.
I'm not really interested in JJ's response because I know what it will be*, but fortunately a debate usually has more that 2 participants. There are those engaged in teh discussion and the audience. It's for the latter that I even bother to enter the frey anymore.
* 
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm not really interested in JJ's response
then we're even.
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Quote:
BLITZER: So you want hearings? You want hearings?
LUGAR: I do. I think this is an appropriate time, without going back and should the president have ever tried to listen to a call coming from Afghanistan, probably of course. And in the first few weeks we made many concessions in the Congress because we were at war and we were under attack.
We still have the possibility of that going on so we don't want to obviate all of this, but I think we want to see what in the course of time really works best and the FISA Act has worked pretty well from the time of President Carter's day to the current time.
Terrorist lover or somebody just interested in a little thing called the constitution?
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I'm not really interested in JJ's response
then we're even.
You couldn't even quote me in a full sentence. 
What exactly are you affraid of?
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Quote:
Congressmembers write White House to ask if reporters were bugged
Rep. John Conyers, Jr. (D-MI) and 22 other House members sent a letter to President Bush today requesting that he provide a range of information concerning the controversial warrantless surveillance program by the NSA, RAW STORY has learned.
In light of recent disclosures by NBC that CNN Reporter Christiane Amanpour's telephone calls may have been intercepted by the Bush Administration -- a fact caught by AmericaBLOG's John Aravosis. The Democrats asked for information regarding whether any reporters or other members of the media have had phone calls intercepted under the NSA program.
The congressmembers also asked the President to propose statutory language that would specifically authorize the program so that it could be considered as part of a possible extension of the USA PATRIOT Act scheduled to sunset Feb. 3.
...
rawstory.com
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I'm glad to see you've found another web site... This story however seems like a non-story they aren't reporting that the Bush admin has done anything they're simply reporting that he's been asked.
I should write a letter asking if John Kerry has ever raped a puppy. Now, THAT would be news!
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The difference would be they just didn't randomly pull the question out of their ass.
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It's a small difference. They're still reporting a questione insiuating it's an answer. I'm remain unconvinced that Kerry isn't a puppy rapist.
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Where or how are they insinuating it's an answer?
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You can find a hidden motive behind every action done and word said by a conservitive pundit, but you assign nothing but the puresst motive behind anything the left does. I'm sorry, but if you can truly say you don't see the slightest hint of political posturing in this story then you just may be a partisan puppet.
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That of course only apply's to the left  And it doesn't answer the question. At what point are they OK reporting this story?
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Quote:
because we can
Jan. 6, 2006 - To many people, the most perplexing aspect of the Bush administration’s domestic spying program is that it was largely unnecessary. President George Bush could have simply invoked the emergency provisions of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which would have allowed the government to eavesdrop on suspected terrorists 72 hours before receiving authorization from the FISA court. Alternatively, the White House could have gone to Congress to amend the FISA statute. So why did the White House take such a controversial step, one that would inevitably open it up to serious charges of violating the civil liberties of American citizens? The answer may be as simple as this: a zealous belief that it could, regardless of whether doing so was necessary.
The administration’s biggest mistakes in fighting the war on terror have been the product of a willful defiance of the traditional rules of warfare. Bush understood instinctively that the United States needed more creative thinking and a new flexibility to prevail against an enemy as vicious and unconventional as Al Qaeda. But a small, powerful group of ideologically committed Bush administration officials, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, had a more far-reaching agenda: to prove at virtually every turn that the Constitution vests in the president near unfettered powers in the conduct of national security policy. The principle became such an article of faith that upholding it often trumped the wisdom--and necessity--of individual policies. Playing out behind the scenes was a bitter struggle between the proponents of presidential supremacy during wartime and traditionalists, often career civil servants, who wanted to maintain the balance of power. A healthy tension between the two should serve as an important check on overreaching by ideologues or on the indolence of time-serving bureaucrats.
...
msnbc
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Quote:
Poll: Most Say U.S. Needs Warrant to Snoop
By KATHERINE SHRADER, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - A majority of Americans want the Bush administration to get court approval before eavesdropping on people inside the United States, even if those calls might involve suspected terrorists, an AP-Ipsos poll shows.
Over the past three weeks, President Bush and top aides have defended the electronic monitoring program they secretly launched shortly after Sept. 11, 2001, as a vital tool to protect the nation from al-Qaida and its affiliates.
Yet 56 percent of respondents in an AP-Ipsos poll said the government should be required to first get a court warrant to eavesdrop on the overseas calls and e-mails of U.S. citizens when those communications are believed to be tied to terrorism.
...
Party affiliation is a factor, too. Almost three-fourths of Democrats and one-third of Republicans want to require court warrants.
Yahoo.com
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I'd need to see the breakdown of how AP conducted the poll before I put much stock in this, given that, in at least one incident in the past, AP has put forth polls that were skewed First, only 81% of respondents were even eligible to vote, and there's no indication of how many of them actually went to the polls in 2004..
1. Party Leanings - The poll is slanted 52-40% towards Democrats, even though the voters in the 2004 election were split evenly at 37% between Republicans and Democrats.
2. Religion - Next, a whopping 19% of respondents had "no" religion, while in 2004 only 10% of voters had "no" religion, and they voted overwhelmingly for Kerry (+36%).
3. Age of Respondents In this poll 31% of the respondents were between 18-34, even though the 18-29 year olds (a slightly smaller demo) only made up 17% of the electorate in the 2004 election. I think it's pretty safe to say that by including 30-34 year olds that number would still not have come close to the IPSOS sample.
4. Income Level of Respondents - This one is amazing. In this poll 15% of respondents made under $15,000 per year. In 2004, only 8% of voters were in this income bracket, and voted 63-36% for Kerry.
5. Marital Status - In this poll, only 56% of respondents are married. In 2004, 63% of voters were married, and voted 57-42% for Bush.
6. Geography - In this poll, only 17% of respondents were from "rural" areas. In 2004, 25% of voters were from rural areas, and voted 57-42% for Bush.
7. Race - In this poll, there were 71% white respondents and 12% Hispanic respondents. In 2004, 77% of voters were white, and only 8% Hispanic. Bush won the white vote 58-41% and Kerry the Hispanic vote 53-44%.
Given AP's history of slanted one really has to wonder if the purpose of conducting it was to get good results, or push an agenda.
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This poll however actually asks the pertinent question unlike say the one cited previously by you & others.
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Quote:
Jan 10, 2006 — Russell Tice, a longtime insider at the National Security Agency, is now a whistleblower the agency would like to keep quiet.
For 20 years, Tice worked in the shadows as he helped the United States spy on other people's conversations around the world.
"I specialized in what's called special access programs," Tice said of his job. "We called them 'black world' programs and operations."
But now, Tice tells ABC News that some of those secret "black world" operations run by the NSA were operated in ways that he believes violated the law. He is prepared to tell Congress all he knows about the alleged wrongdoing in these programs run by the Defense Department and the NSA in the post-9/11 efforts to go after terrorists.
"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.
Tracking Calls
Tice says the technology exists to track and sort through every domestic and international phone call as they are switched through centers, such as one in New York, and to search for key words or phrases that a terrorist might use.
"If you picked the word 'jihad' out of a conversation," Tice said, "the technology exists that you focus in on that conversation, and you pull it out of the system for processing."
According to Tice, intelligence analysts use the information to develop graphs that resemble spiderwebs linking one suspect's phone number to hundreds or even thousands more.
Tice Admits Being a Source for The New York Times
President Bush has admitted that he gave orders that allowed the NSA to eavesdrop on a small number of Americans without the usual requisite warrants.
But Tice disagrees. He says the number of Americans subject to eavesdropping by the NSA could be in the millions if the full range of secret NSA programs is used.
"That would mean for most Americans that if they conducted, or you know, placed an overseas communication, more than likely they were sucked into that vacuum," Tice said.
....
ABC News
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Quote:
Matter-eater Man said:
"The mentality was we need to get these guys, and we're going to do whatever it takes to get them," he said.
Apparently the mentality of Tice and many Democrats is that we don't need to get these guys and we're not going to do whatever it takes to get them...?
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We're going to shake their hands, stick a fiver in their pocket and wish them the best of luck.
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Quote:
Spy agency post-9/11 data sidetracked FBI: NY Times
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In the months following the September 11 attacks, the National Security Agency sent a torrent of names, phone numbers and e-mail addresses to the FBI that swamped the agency but led in virtually every case to dead ends or innocent Americans, The New York Times reported on Monday.
FBI officials complained repeatedly to the secretive spy agency, which was collecting much of the data by eavesdropping on the international phone and Internet communications of targeted Americans.
The unfiltered data swamped FBI investigators, the newspaper reported on its Web site in an article written for its Tuesday editions.
Some FBI officials and prosecutors also thought the checks, which sometimes involved interviews by agents, were pointless intrusions on the privacy of law-abiding Americans.
The bureau's then-director, Robert Mueller, raised concerns about the legal basis for the eavesdropping program, which did not seek court warrants, the Times reported, citing an unidentified government official. Mueller asked senior administration officials "whether the program had a proper legal foundation," but ultimately deferred to the Justice Department legal opinions.
The 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act makes it illegal to spy on U.S. citizens in the United States without the approval of a special, secret court.
President George W. Bush has said he ordered the domestic eavesdropping operation to fight terrorism after the September 11 attacks and that his actions were within the law.
Citing interviews with more than a dozen current and former law enforcement and counterterrorism officials, the Times said the flood of NSA tips led to few potential terrorists inside the country they did not know of from other sources -- and diverted agents from work they viewed as more productive.
...
Reuters
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Raw Story has a detailed 42-page defense of the President's "inherent constitutional authority" to conduct warrantless investigations of enemy forces to dissuade attacks upon the United States. While I haven't read the entire thing in detail, it appears to my eyes that the document is a fleshed-out version of this five-page DoJ briefing (PDF) released December 22nd, and it seems like they're making the same points I discussed here. The document cites copious case law, the President's inherent Constitutional authority under Article II, and a FISA exemption granted by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (AUMF). It also makes the argument that if FISA is shown to conflict with the President's Article II Powers, then FISA is unconstitutional. This is going to be very interesting, but I'd say unless the President's detractors can come up with a new argument I haven't heard of yet, then his powers to conduct this kind of warrantless surveillance will be upheld to the great consternation of those ts that do not understand the responsibilities on the Executive during a time of war.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
This is going to be very interesting, but I'd say unless the President's detractors can come up with a new argument I haven't heard of yet, then his powers to conduct this kind of warrantless surveillance will be upheld to the great consternation of those ts that do not understand the responsibilities on the Executive during a time of war.
I dunno. Something about the words "warrantless surveillance" sound very dangerous. Not necessarily in the hands of Bush or his administration, but this kind of power is a very slippery slope.
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Quote:
Lawmakers seek review of eavesdropping rules
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. surveillance laws should be reviewed and possibly rewritten to allow the type of eavesdropping that U.S. President George W. Bush has been criticized for authorizing, lawmakers from both parties said on Sunday.
Democrats and some Republicans have said the Bush administration's classified warrantless eavesdropping program is illegal. The White House has strongly defended the National Security Agency surveillance as legal and essential. The Senate Judiciary Committee starts hearings on the issue on February 6.
The NSA has been monitoring communications, including e-mail and telephone calls, into and out of the United States by people believed linked to al Qaeda or related groups.
An audio tape by Osama bin Laden that emerged last week threatening new attacks on the United States has heightened security concerns. Neither party can afford to be seen as failing to protect the country, particularly as corruption scandals and public questioning of the Iraq war loom over November's congressional elections.
Lawmakers on several Sunday talk shows said that if the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) does not give Bush the tools and legal framework he needs to monitor potential threats, the president should ask Congress to change the law rather than bypass it.
Massachusetts Democrat John Kerry, who endorsed former Vice President Al Gore's call for an independent investigation of the Bush program, said on ABC's "This Week" that some Republicans like Bush adviser Karl Rove are trying to equate Democratic opposition to warrantless spying as weakness.
"What he's (Rove) trying to pretend is somehow Democrats don't want to eavesdrop appropriately to protect the country. That's a lie," Kerry said. "We're prepared to eavesdrop wherever and whenever necessary in order to make America safer."
'THERE IS A WAY'
But Kerry said the spying has to be legal and constitutional and if Bush needs the law to be changed, "then come to us and tell us. ... There is a way to protect the Constitution and not go off on your own and violate it."
Other prominent Democratic senators including Dick Durbin of Illinois, Charles Schumer of New York and Joseph Lieberman of Connecticut made similar comments about re-examining the breadth and modernity of FISA in television interviews a few days after Rove urged Republicans to campaign on national security and the war on terror.
...
Reuters
I think the White House made a mistake letting Rove speak in public. All the networks including FOX covered this.
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I don't see thas as reflecting poorly on Bush. What I see now is Dems responding to public opinion polls and saying they agree whith the Presidents actions, but they wish he would have asked thier permission.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
I don't see thas as reflecting poorly on Bush. What I see now is Dems responding to public opinion polls and saying they agree whith the Presidents actions, but they wish he would have asked thier permission.
Well I was thinking more about most Americans who also care about the constitution & don't want a President operating above it when he didn't have to. The far far right seems to be more interested in protecting poor judgement & trying to avoid any investigation.
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Acctually, the president has welcomed an investigation and has does nothing unconstitutional. Infact it's the constitution that grants him teh authority to do what most Americans acctually approve of, but please don't end the debate now. The side shifting is too good for us on teh right to want to see you guys end it.
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WBAM you may want reread this thread. The only shift that has occurred is the amount of eavesdropping the President has admitted doing and that he is no longer fighting (publicly) to stop an investigation.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Really, that's the only shift? Prominant Democrats who were at one point calling this a massive intrusion of government aren't now saying that they support the policy, but think that teh president should have first consulted them? Well, I can't wait to see how well your able to get teh American people behind you on the the grounds that the president is doing the right thing, but he failed to fill out the proper paperwork. Yea, I see a ladslide victory for teh left here in the next election, perhaps with impeachment to follow. Way to have your finger on teh pulse of America.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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OP
Fair Play! 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 15,820 Likes: 41 |
You'll have to be a little less vague in your accusations. Like who are the prominent Dems & maybe some actual quotes. If seeking an investigation into the wiretapping program to find out what the President is actually doing cost the Dems votes, so be it. Protecting our system of checks & balances is well worth it. You also ignore the Republicans that also feel an investigation is warranted. The Constitution at the end of the day is important to both parties.
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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There was the "prominent" John Kerry, explaining his position on the "scandal" over the Bush administration's allegedly spying on al Qaeda on ABC this weekend: Sen. John F. Kerry is calling President Bush's warrantless wiretaps "a clear violation of the law." . . .
Although Kerry did not go as far as to agree with former Vice President Al Gore's belief that the wiretaps may constitute an "impeachable offense," Kerry called for a special counsel and independent investigation. But wait! There's more: Kerry, who endorsed former Vice President Al Gore's call for an independent investigation of the Bush program, said on ABC's "This Week" that some Republicans like Bush adviser Karl Rove are trying to equate Democratic opposition to warrantless spying as weakness.
"What he's (Rove) trying to pretend is somehow Democrats don't want to eavesdrop appropriately to protect the country. That's a lie," Kerry said. "We're prepared to eavesdrop wherever and whenever necessary in order to make America safer." So he's for spying! Er, hang on a second! Here's there's still more:
Kerry yesterday called the National Security Agency's program to eavesdrop on terror suspects illegal, but he said he will continue to support its funding.
OK, so he's on both sides of the question whether America should spy on al Qaeda, but he's definitely in favor of funding spying on al Qaeda. Or is he? Remember that after opposing the Iraq war after favoring it, he voted for the $87 billion before voting against it.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,251
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And it's not teh Dem's righousness that's going to cost them votes. It's thier transparent pandering and the fact that Bin-Laden crafts his speaches now from thier talking points. The American people people want teh constitution up-held, they also want to avoind getting blown to little bits. Bush has been doing both. The Democrats have been accusing the President of "taking his eye off the ball" in regards to Bin-Laden, but when it's revealed that his eyes and ears have been very much "on the ball" they start to accuse him of going to far leading some to believe that the left doesn't care what the president does, it's wrong.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
" I know God exists because WBAM told me so. " - theory9
JLA brand RACK points = 514k
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Joined: Jun 2003
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Fair Play! 15000+ posts
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Kerry is saying that spying on Al Qaeda is good, a President going around the law if he didn't need to is very bad. Not a hard concept.
And WBAM you ever notice that whenever these Bin Laden tapes surface you find them helpful in electing Republicans? That isn't by accident.
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