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Quote:
Grimm said:
wrong! they are the same!
enough of this! I am the Earth 3 Grimm! I've been coming to this world the whole time! Jeremy Prime, put TTT in the complex machine that I created from the body of the Anti-Moderator!
On it boss!
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Oh wait... 
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I just got finished reading the entirety of 5 gigs worth of Crisis.
I've already clawed my eyes out. Now somebody please put me out of my misery.
I thought this new generation of writers were supposed to be innovative or more mature or.....Something. Why revert to such a terrible plot device through such a poorly executed idea?
Truth be told. I've liked most of the ideas and premises from the writers. They just can't seem to get them done right. Crisis is no different--Except, in this case, the plot is beyond derived. It's even worse than that two brothers thing between Mavel and DC.
Last edited by Pariah; 2006-01-30 1:22 AM.
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So, Dick Grayson is going to die?
BTW, this was the best superhero comic I've read in a loooooong time. Pure horror-rock-fight, with the speedsters saving the day. The Flash (all of them) rule...
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Someone important is gonna die yet I guarantee it...
I hope it isn't Grayson that would suck.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
BTW, this was the best superhero comic I've read in a loooooong time.
The only part of Crisis that's made me feel this way was the final panel of Wonder Woman 220.
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Since the both the Joker and the real Luthor aren't part of the Society, they'll probably be teaming up against it soon. It'd be cool if those two singlehandedly brought down the whole organization (maybe with help from the Calculator, who's been working with crazy armor Luthor in some titles).
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You know, this is the first time I've really liked the character of post-Crisis Diana. She's starting to act more like her mother, Hippolytia. Polly was, essentially, the Golden Age Wonder Woman....without all the bondage. Unfortunately.
But, they can't/won't keep her like this. In comics, if any major character kills a bad guy, then, that means we're either in for a very long, drawn-out melodramatic journey of "confronting personal demons" and "moral redemption", or, their death.
If DC proves me wrong, it will be the dawning of such a glorious age in this industry. Where common sense outweighs the prententious, and childlike mentality of moral absolutes. Does a cop commit "murder" if he kills a criminal to protect the lives of innocents? If there is no other way--and let's be realistic here...sometimes there just isn't--then common sense tells you that his actions are not that of a murderer. I've grown seriously tired of this ridiculous regime of fantasy ethics painted onto comic characters. If their standard made any realistic sense, writers wouldn't have to use entire storylines to try and prove/push the point across. It would just be inherently understood.
Diana killing Max Lord didn't "shock" me. It made me happy that, for once, a writer is getting in there and being honest about the whole thing.
Hmmm. Sorry. Not quite sure where that rant came from....
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we know you, Pro. we know where the rant came from. we just don't know where the apology at the end came from.  
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
You know, this is the first time I've really liked the character of post-Crisis Diana. She's starting to act more like her mother, Hippolytia. Polly was, essentially, the Golden Age Wonder Woman....without all the bondage. Unfortunately.
But, they can't/won't keep her like this. In comics, if any major character kills a bad guy, then, that means we're either in for a very long, drawn-out melodramatic journey of "confronting personal demons" and "moral redemption", or, their death.
If DC proves me wrong, it will be the dawning of such a glorious age in this industry. Where common sense outweighs the prententious, and childlike mentality of moral absolutes. Does a cop commit "murder" if he kills a criminal to protect the lives of innocents? If there is no other way--and let's be realistic here...sometimes there just isn't--then common sense tells you that his actions are not that of a murderer. I've grown seriously tired of this ridiculous regime of fantasy ethics painted onto comic characters. If their standard made any realistic sense, writers wouldn't have to use entire storylines to try and prove/push the point across. It would just be inherently understood.
Diana killing Max Lord didn't "shock" me. It made me happy that, for once, a writer is getting in there and being honest about the whole thing.
Hmmm. Sorry. Not quite sure where that rant came from....
Do we blame the writers? Or should we blame the fanboys who flip out whenever something major (read: different) occurs to a beloved character?
In this specific example, the reality is that despite being an ambassador of peace, Diana is first and foremost a warrior. It would make sense that she would kill - not always, of course, but certainly in extreme situations like the one that was presented with Lord. I think the problem is, is not that the writers doen't want to push the envelope, but that TPTB are trying to avoid fan backlash ("You've ruined X character and made them a murderer! How can they still be a hero now?"). Which in turn leaves things stale.
 Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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I think most fans are mature, even as kids, enough to accept a Wonder Woman who killed in the appropriate circumstance.
After all, we all grew up with guys like Luke Skywalker and Indiana Jones.
No, I blame the writers who either adhere religiously to a "Batman doesn't kill" creed or go too far in the opposite direction and give us "blood and guts."
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I think most fans are mature, even as kids, enough to accept a Wonder Woman who killed in the appropriate circumstance.
They may understand it, but accepting it is another story.
Quote:
After all, we all grew up with guys like Luke Skywalker and Indiana Jones.
But those heros either killed from the first story on, or were not held to a "no kill" policy (like Batman) and thus, it was always acceptable for them to kill because they were never held to a different standard. I think once the fans lock a character, like Batman or Supes, into a certain standard or "moral code" it is hard to shake them out of it - no matter how much sense the death would make in the written circumstances.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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But, again, would the readers have that much trouble accepting it, if the writers didn't jam it down their throats with every other issue, whether germaine to the story or not?
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want a Superman that kills. To me, it goes against the character. But at the same time, just as I don't want every character to be as "grim as gritty" as Batman, I don't want them all to have an unrealistic code against killing in self defense either.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
But, again, would the readers have that much trouble accepting it, if the writers didn't jam it down their throats with every other issue, whether germaine to the story or not?
chicken or egg?
Quote:
Now, don't get me wrong. I don't want a Superman that kills. To me, it goes against the character. But at the same time, just as I don't want every character to be as "grim as gritty" as Batman, I don't want them all to have an unrealistic code against killing in self defense either.
Yeah, I agree. I don't want Batman to becme the Punisher, but damn, you would think that he would've killed the Joker by now.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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I think the "Batman should have killed the Joker" theory is a canard. As noted on that recent thread, if Batman kills the Joker, just because he MIGHT escape Arkham, that makes Batman a murderer.
Where the writers go wrong is that Batman should have killed someone in self defense.
I remember about twenty years ago, they seemed to be starting to accept this.
There was a scene in a 'Tec story (Barr and Davis) that had Batman beseiged by machine gun toting terrorists and Batman grabbed one without comment, spun him around and used him as a shield when another fired. Very brief, very cool and not mentioned (so O'Neill probably missed it).
In "Cosmic Odyssey," Batman grabbed a ray gun dropped by one of Darkseid's parademons, and used it to blast a basketball sized hole right through the parademon (while thinking/narrating "I don't like guns, but sometimes you have to go with the tools you have.")
And, about the same time, during the Collins/Starlin run on Batman, there was a conversation where Batman admitted to Jason he'd killed people, "but only in self defense."
Shortly thereafter, however, O'Neill must have woken up from his nap and realized he'd violated his own "Bat Canon" because it was after that we got a ton of the "Batman doesn't kill" "Batman hates guns" comments beating us over the head.
Basically, I think the "BB" writer had it correct "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is how Batman should be portrayed.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the "Batman should have killed the Joker" theory is a canard. As noted on that recent thread, if Batman kills the Joker, just because he MIGHT escape Arkham, that makes Batman a murderer.
You misunderstood me - I'm not saying this at all (that he should kill the Joker bc. the Joker might escpae and kill again). But if he killed the Joker in self defense - and there have been plenty of times where this could have been a possibility - well, I could see that happening in a Bat tale.
Last edited by harleykwin; 2006-01-30 6:38 PM.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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Quote:
Grimm said:
we know you, Pro. we know where the rant came from. we just don't know where the apology at the end came from.
I must be getting soft in my old age...
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IMO, the Joker should be the one character that no one should be able to apprehend. He should be the one criminal that always eludes the Batman (thus giving Bats a reason to obsess over him) Sort of like those detectives that obsess over 20yr old cold cases where they know who did it, but because of a lack of evidence, can't put them away. Or, those detectives that try to track down serial killers but keep running into dead ends.
IMO, the only reason the Joker should ever be in Arkham, is because the Bat finally caught up with him and now he's facing the death penalty.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
But, they can't/won't keep her like this. In comics, if any major character kills a bad guy, then, that means we're either in for a very long, drawn-out melodramatic journey of "confronting personal demons" and "moral redemption", or, their death.
Or, worst of all, Giant yellow ancient parasites that possessed you, and now, have absolved you of all crimes 
Quote:
If DC proves me wrong, it will be the dawning of such a glorious age in this industry. Where common sense outweighs the prententious, and childlike mentality of moral absolutes. Does a cop commit "murder" if he kills a criminal to protect the lives of innocents? If there is no other way--and let's be realistic here...sometimes there just isn't--then common sense tells you that his actions are not that of a murderer. I've grown seriously tired of this ridiculous regime of fantasy ethics painted onto comic characters. If their standard made any realistic sense, writers wouldn't have to use entire storylines to try and prove/push the point across. It would just be inherently understood.
Diana killing Max Lord didn't "shock" me. It made me happy that, for once, a writer is getting in there and being honest about the whole thing.
Quote:
the G-man said:
Basically, I think the "BB" writer had it correct "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is how Batman should be portrayed.
Quote:
Doc.Mid-Nite said:
IMO, the Joker should be the one character that no one should be able apprehend. He should be the one criminal that always eludes the Batman (thus giving Bats a reason to obsess over him) Sort of like those detectives that obsess over 20yr old cold cases where they know who did it, but because of a lack of evidence, can't put them away. Or, those detectives that try to track down serial killers but keep running into dead ends.
IMO, the only reason the Joker should ever be in Arkham, is because the Bat finally caught up with him and now he's facing the death penalty.
 All of it.
"Now TV's all about format these days isn't it, and I've got a new type for you right here.
Its me and Paris Hilton driving around in a car.... Now I know what you're thinking, but she's in the boot!"
"So you see, 'Ring around the Rosey' refers to the horrible symptoms of a terrifying disease, a disease which.....a disease which....ZIM! Theres a Pigeon on you're head. You have 'Head Pigeons'. get to the Nurse before they spread to the other children."
"Get off my lawn Cookie Beast!"
--Invader Zim
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Quote:
Doc.Mid-Nite said:
IMO, the only reason the Joker should ever be in Arkham, is because the Bat finally caught up with him and now he's facing the death penalty.
But if he's in Arkham, he's "not guilty by reason of insanity," so he wouldn't be facing the death penalty.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Doc.Mid-Nite said:
IMO, the only reason the Joker should ever be in Arkham, is because the Bat finally caught up with him and now he's facing the death penalty.
But if he's in Arkham, he's "not guilty by reason of insanity," so he wouldn't be facing the death penalty.
Ok, you got me there. But I still think the only reason the Joker should ever be in Arkham, is because the Bat finally caught up with him. Other than that, the Joker should be uncatchable.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
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It's kind of a cool idea, but I could see it getting old really fast.
To me, the real issue is that DC tends to overuse the Joker these days (or at least it seems that way). They trot him out for every crossover and usually one or two additional stories. That creates the "revolving door" feeling.
I would think a better way to do it would be sort of to "rotate" things: sometimes he escapes, sometimes he gets captured, sometimes you think he may or may not be dead.
Make his MO a little more like a "real" serial killer. Have him lay low for months, or years at a time, plotting something "big."
As opposed to now, where he's often (mis)portrayed as a crime boss.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
It's kind of a cool idea, but I could see it getting old really fast.
To me, the real issue is that DC tends to overuse the Joker these days (or at least it seems that way). They trot him out for every crossover and usually one or two additional stories. That creates the "revolving door" feeling.
I would think a better way to do it would be sort of to "rotate" things: sometimes he escapes, sometimes he gets captured, sometimes you think he may or may not be dead.
Make his MO a little more like a "real" serial killer. Have him lay low for months, or years at a time, plotting something "big."
I agree with everything you've said, except for the "sometimes gets captured" part. It just seems to me, that every time he escapes Arkham, it makes everyone else look incompetent and Bats look foolish for letting them put him back in there in the first place.
"Life ain't nothin' but bitches and money" - Ice Cube
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the "Batman should have killed the Joker" theory is a canard. As noted on that recent thread, if Batman kills the Joker, just because he MIGHT escape Arkham, that makes Batman a murderer.
And that's exactly why I'd lock Wondy up for killing Maxwell Lord.
She preserves her own law and values in killing him just as I would have as one who supports the laws of the US.
Same for Batman and Joker.....And Superman and Green Arrow and Green Lantern and Aquaman and the Titans and........
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Its not so clear cut in the Lord case. I good argument can be made she had to kill him to save Batman and others.
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Quote:
Grimm said:
we know you, Pro. we know where the rant came from.
We know all about those bodies buried in the woods, Pro.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Its not so clear cut in the Lord case. I good argument can be made she had to kill him to save Batman and others.
Only within the clear and present action of doing so. Instead, however, he was apprehended by Wondy's lasso.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
I think the "Batman should have killed the Joker" theory is a canard. As noted on that recent thread, if Batman kills the Joker, just because he MIGHT escape Arkham, that makes Batman a murderer.
And that's exactly why I'd lock Wondy up for killing Maxwell Lord.
She preserves her own law and values in killing him just as I would have as one who supports the laws of the US.
Same for Batman and Joker.....And Superman and Green Arrow and Green Lantern and Aquaman and the Titans and........
She killed him in Switzerland -- its up to people with pocket knives to try and catch her!
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Oh. You're right.
There's laws don't differ much though.
Although, Lord was an American himself.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
we know you, Pro. we know where the rant came from.
We know all about those bodies buried in the woods, Pro.
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1 Millionth Customer 10000+ posts
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Its not so clear cut in the Lord case. I good argument can be made she had to kill him to save Batman and others.
I don't understand why its an issue at all. Superman is arguably equal in power to just about every military in the world combined.
If Lord had control of him and planned to use Superman then Wonder Woman had no choice but to kill Lord. Especially when you consider that Lord was moments away from having Superman attack Wonder Woman again.
Bow ties are coool.
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Its not so clear cut in the Lord case. I good argument can be made she had to kill him to save Batman and others.
I don't understand why its an issue at all. Superman is arguably equal in power to just about every military in the world combined.
If Lord had control of him and planned to use Superman then Wonder Woman had no choice but to kill Lord. Especially when you consider that Lord was moments away from having Superman attack Wonder Woman again.
Kerry and Dean have said that the the threat Max Lord presented to the world was greatly exagerated......so it depends on who you want to believe.
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I believe that children are the future.
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