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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
And if you don't trust Wikipedia, how about Britannica, which seems to be where the main article was sourced from:
Quote:
the voluntary limiting of human reproduction, using such means as sexual abstinence, contraception, induced abortion, and surgical sterilization. It includes the spacing as well as the number of children in a family.
well, online dictionary disagrees with you, and wikipedia, and britanica,
No, it still agrees with all three of us. Keep scrolling down:
Quote:
birth control
n : limiting the number of children born
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
if 90% of women at risk for unplanned pregnancy use contraception and still concieve and choose abortion, they did not choose another form of birht control. they chose abortion. completely different.
birth control is stopping an egg from becoming fertilized....conception.
abortion. termination of a fetus, or a fertilized egg. after conception.
What about the day after pill? That kills the egg just in case a child was concieved within it.
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but how. how the limiting is the key. read all of it. again, 2 different things. done 2 different ways.
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You take the pill after unprotected sex and it kills the embryo. That's not a form of controlling the situation, that's trying to correct an abboration.
Last edited by Pariah; 2006-01-31 8:55 PM.
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Last edited by Captain Sammitch; 2006-01-31 8:36 PM.
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Abortions control of the number of children born. That, by your own source, tim, makes it birth control.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
if 90% of women at risk for unplanned pregnancy use contraception and still concieve and choose abortion, they did not choose another form of birht control. they chose abortion. completely different.
birth control is stopping an egg from becoming fertilized....conception.
abortion. termination of a fetus, or a fertilized egg. after conception.
What about the day after pill? That kills the egg just in case a child was concieved within it.
actually, incorrect.... read here
EC Prevents Pregnancy and the Need for Abortion.
EC is also known as postcoital contraception or the morning-after pill, but the term emergency contraception underscores that EC can be used up to 120 hours (five days) after unprotected sex.[5,6]
EC delays or inhibits ovulation, disrupts follicular development, and/or interferes with the maturation of the corpus luteum. There is no evidence that EC prevents implantation, alters sperm or egg transport, inhibits fertilization, or changes cervical mucous.[2,6]
EC does not affect an established pregnancy and does not cause abortion.[2] The National Institutes of Health, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and the American Medical Women's Association (AMWA) define pregnancy as beginning with implantation.[7,8,9] ACOG, AMWA, and other organizations, including the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA), agree that EC has no effect once implantation has occurred.[8,9,10] Moreover, the Society for Adolescent Medicine (SAM) asserts that there is no evidence that EC affects a fertilized egg, even before implantation.[2]
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Quote:
Pariah said:
that's trying an abboration.
What do you mean by that?
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Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Abortions control of the number of children born. That, by your own source, tim, makes it birth control.
no, actually, read all of that and you will see that it is a different method with similair results. they both prevent a child being born, one prevents pregnancy, one ends it.
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I think Wednesday was referring to this: Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
And if you don't trust Wikipedia, how about Britannica, which seems to be where the main article was sourced from:
Quote:
the voluntary limiting of human reproduction, using such means as sexual abstinence, contraception, induced abortion, and surgical sterilization. It includes the spacing as well as the number of children in a family.
well, online dictionary disagrees with you, and wikipedia, and britanica,
No, it still agrees with all three of us. Keep scrolling down:
Quote:
birth control
n : limiting the number of children born
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
'Kay. I'm gonna go make some quesadíllas.
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Quote:
Wednesday said:
Quote:
Pariah said:
that's trying an abboration.
What do you mean by that?
Typo. I fixed it.
"trying to correct an abboration.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
actually, it got shifted to abortion being birth control when it was claimed that abortion was used as bith control by 93% of women. that is when i pointed out that abortion is not by definition a contraceptive. it is abortion. completely different things with in the long run the same result, no birth. and 2 me, as a person and a father there is a big difference. while i am pro choice, and also believe that every chance to bring another baby into this world should be explored by an expecting woman. and no it' not semantic's. abortion and contraceptives are 2 completely different things. 2 ways to get the same ultimate result do not make it the same thing.
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
actually, incorrect.... read here
EC Prevents Pregnancy and the Need for Abortion.
EC is also known as postcoital contraception or the morning-after pill, but the term emergency contraception underscores that EC can be used up to 120 hours (five days) after unprotected sex.[5,6]
EC delays or inhibits ovulation, disrupts follicular development, and/or interferes with the maturation of the corpus luteum. There is no evidence that EC prevents implantation, alters sperm or egg transport, inhibits fertilization, or changes cervical mucous.[2,6]
EC does not affect an established pregnancy and does not cause abortion.[2] The National Institutes of Health, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and the American Medical Women's Association (AMWA) define pregnancy as beginning with implantation.[7,8,9] ACOG, AMWA, and other organizations, including the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA), agree that EC has no effect once implantation has occurred.[8,9,10] Moreover, the Society for Adolescent Medicine (SAM) asserts that there is no evidence that EC affects a fertilized egg, even before implantation.[2]
This is a myth perpetuated by teen sites like the one you linked to. Without trying to quote a whole bunch of different sources, allow me to try and lay some slogic on you brother: Conception doesn't necessarily happen "the day after". Many times over it's during ejaculation that conception happens. Measuring this fact up against the startling success rate of the day after pill to prevent child growth really makes you wonder why there isn't a larger ratio of fetus' beating the day after pill.
Furthermore, women who've taken the day after pill for a period surpassing as much as 48 hours have had negative effects on their kids. Shouldn't have happened according to that site.
Last edited by Pariah; 2006-01-31 9:02 PM.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
I think Wednesday was referring to this:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
And if you don't trust Wikipedia, how about Britannica, which seems to be where the main article was sourced from:
Quote:
the voluntary limiting of human reproduction, using such means as sexual abstinence, contraception, induced abortion, and surgical sterilization. It includes the spacing as well as the number of children in a family.
well, online dictionary disagrees with you, and wikipedia, and britanica,
No, it still agrees with all three of us. Keep scrolling down:
Quote:
birth control
n : limiting the number of children born
yes, you take the one of 4 that best represents your arguement, except that you take the one that is less decsriptive. the others go further into explaining exactly how it limits births. now look up abortion and how many times is abortion defined as birth control, it's not. it's described as termination of pregnancy. expulsion of a fetus.
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"Birth control" by the simple definitions of the very words themselves put together would mean "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over the emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother", which is what abortion does.
You're no less guilty of finding or interpreting a definitions as it fits what you want it to. You said Dictionary.com disagreed with two other sources' definition of the term. I proved you wrong. Simple as that.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
actually, incorrect.... read here
EC Prevents Pregnancy and the Need for Abortion.
EC is also known as postcoital contraception or the morning-after pill, but the term emergency contraception underscores that EC can be used up to 120 hours (five days) after unprotected sex.[5,6]
EC delays or inhibits ovulation, disrupts follicular development, and/or interferes with the maturation of the corpus luteum. There is no evidence that EC prevents implantation, alters sperm or egg transport, inhibits fertilization, or changes cervical mucous.[2,6]
EC does not affect an established pregnancy and does not cause abortion.[2] The National Institutes of Health, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and the American Medical Women's Association (AMWA) define pregnancy as beginning with implantation.[7,8,9] ACOG, AMWA, and other organizations, including the U.S. Food & Drug Administration (FDA), agree that EC has no effect once implantation has occurred.[8,9,10] Moreover, the Society for Adolescent Medicine (SAM) asserts that there is no evidence that EC affects a fertilized egg, even before implantation.[2]
This is a myth perpetuated by teen sites like the one you linked to. Without trying to quote a whole bunch of different sources, allow me to try and lay some slogic on you brother: Conception doesn't necessarily happen "the day after". Many times over it's during ejaculation that conception happens. Measuring this fact up against the startling success rate of the day after pill to prevent child growth really makes you wonder why there isn't a larger ratio of fetus' beating the day after pill.
Furthermore, women who've taken the day after pill for a period surpassing as much as 48 hours have had negative effects on their kids. Shouldn't have happened according to that site.
actually i thought like you did, that the day after pill was just an immediate abortion. with less trauma to the body. how i learned different was not from that sight, or a site like it, but from a fertility dr. who was helping my best friend and his wife trying to get pregnant. my best friend and his wife who are firmly pro-life also believe the same. me doubting them is what led to asking the dr.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you. Keep them barefoot,pregnant and in the kitchen, right Doc?
Maybe if you look at it as a matter of property rights you can understand. I own a womb. Contrary to my wishes a zygote takes up residence in my womb and proceeds to grow. I have a squater in my body or a tenancy at sufferance. I wish to perform an eviction on my unwanted tenant. If you wish to stop me from evicting the tenant then you are obligated to compensate me at a price I choose. I agree, but only if you will pay me $100m at the end of the lease. Do we have a deal?
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
"Birth control" by the simple definitions of the very words themselves put together would mean "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over the emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother", which is what abortion does.
You're no less guilty of finding or interpreting a definitions as it fits what you want it to. You said Dictionary.com disagreed with two other sources' definition of the term. I proved you wrong. Simple as that.
actually, no, because your sites say one thing, mine says another. the one you quote from dictionary.com does not conflict with the other definitions it also gives for the same thing, but the one that you can best fit into your ideals you use, ignoring the other 3 that contradict how you chose to use the one you did run with. and i actually didn't look up several sources, that was the handiest and what i looked up earlier during this discusion.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you. Keep them barefoot,pregnant and in the kitchen, right Doc?
 You are such a retarded little monkey. Why don't you actually read my posts to see why my stance the way it is rather than just being militant against anyone who doesn't follow your own beliefs. I believe you're trying to impose your values on me as much as I am anyone else. But go on ahead and be vile and angry because I have beliefs that contradict yours and am willing to voice them. Act like you've got the good will of the people on your minds and I just want to have them tow the line and be slaves to my ideology. Go ahead and do that while ignore the fact that the man you really hate is that one staring back at you from the mirror while you're straightening your hairpiece. Smile, be happy, and dance, little monkey. Dance.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
"Birth control" by the simple definitions of the very words themselves put together would mean "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over the emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother", which is what abortion does.
You're no less guilty of finding or interpreting a definitions as it fits what you want it to. You said Dictionary.com disagreed with two other sources' definition of the term. I proved you wrong. Simple as that.
actually, no, because your sites say one thing, mine says another. the one you quote from dictionary.com does not conflict with the other definitions it also gives for the same thing, but the one that you can best fit into your ideals you use, ignoring the other 3 that contradict how you chose to use the one you did run with. and i actually didn't look up several sources, that was the handiest and what i looked up earlier during this discusion.
There were actually two definitions that supported my view from that site. One of which is from a medical dictionary. Try reading the WHOLE page before linking to it next time.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you.
You have decided that all of us who oppose abortion frame our reasoning in that fashion. I have tried to present another way of looking at it. You're choosing to discount and disregard it. I don't see what else there is to do.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
actually i thought like you did, that the day after pill was just an immediate abortion. with less trauma to the body. how i learned different was not from that sight, or a site like it, but from a fertility dr. who was helping my best friend and his wife trying to get pregnant. my best friend and his wife who are firmly pro-life also believe the same. me doubting them is what led to asking the dr.
Your Dr. says one thing, mine says another. And you really haven't disputed the inconsistencies behind the success rate of the day after pill.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
"Birth control" by the simple definitions of the very words themselves put together would mean "To exercise authoritative or dominating influence over the emergence and separation of offspring from the body of the mother", which is what abortion does.
You're no less guilty of finding or interpreting a definitions as it fits what you want it to. You said Dictionary.com disagreed with two other sources' definition of the term. I proved you wrong. Simple as that.
actually, no, because your sites say one thing, mine says another. the one you quote from dictionary.com does not conflict with the other definitions it also gives for the same thing, but the one that you can best fit into your ideals you use, ignoring the other 3 that contradict how you chose to use the one you did run with. and i actually didn't look up several sources, that was the handiest and what i looked up earlier during this discusion.
There were actually two definitions that supported my view from that site. One of which is from a medical dictionary. Try reading the WHOLE page before linking to it next time.
as opposed to what? ignoring what you disliked about it and grabbing hold of what you can fit into your idea? again, nothing on that page contradicts itself. but you try to use one against the other. you ignore the more specific definition, for the more vague one that you can use to support your belief.
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
actually i thought like you did, that the day after pill was just an immediate abortion. with less trauma to the body. how i learned different was not from that sight, or a site like it, but from a fertility dr. who was helping my best friend and his wife trying to get pregnant. my best friend and his wife who are firmly pro-life also believe the same. me doubting them is what led to asking the dr.
Your Dr. says one thing, mine says another. And you really haven't disputed the inconsistencies behind the success rate of the day after pill.
i wouldn't know how honestly. i do not know exactly why it would fail. or why any other birth control fails. so i won't try and say why.
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
as opposed to what? ignoring what you disliked about it and grabbing hold of what you can fit into your idea? again, nothing on that page contradicts itself. but you try to use one against the other. you ignore the more specific definition, for the more vague one that you can use to support your belief.
Jesus Christ! Read my original damned post about it. You implied that Dictionary.com disagreed with Wikipedia and Britannica. I said it did not and showed why. In other words, the web page you used to bolster your point in fact bolstered the other as well. It did not, in fact, disagree with either of the sites I referenced as you so claimed.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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actually, it gave several definitions, all saying the same thing. some more specific than others. the more specific ones cited contraceptives being means of birth control.
another example is web md which calls birth control... Birth control, also called contraception, is any method used to prevent pregnancy. It allows you to choose whether or when to have a child.
now, abortion is not a contraceptive. i think that is agreed. it further speaks about forms of birth control, including lifestyle and abstinance, but abortion is not listed. under abortion it is not called a birth control method. i did find some info about the day after pill as well, and they still call it an emergency contraceptive. and to prevent an unintended pregnancy.
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you.
Given that one of the big anti-abortion posters in this debate has been batwoman, that last comment does little but demonstrate your failings in this debate.
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Quote:
thedoctor said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
Quote:
thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you. Keep them barefoot,pregnant and in the kitchen, right Doc?
You are such a retarded little monkey. Why don't you actually read my posts to see why my stance the way it is rather than just being militant against anyone who doesn't follow your own beliefs. I believe you're trying to impose your values on me as much as I am anyone else. But go on ahead and be vile and angry because I have beliefs that contradict yours and am willing to voice them. Act like you've got the good will of the people on your minds and I just want to have them tow the line and be slaves to my ideology. Go ahead and do that while ignore the fact that the man you really hate is that one staring back at you from the mirror while you're straightening your hairpiece. Smile, be happy, and dance, little monkey. Dance.
The straight white guy has spoken tremble in fear all that behold his contenance!
What drugs are you on and where can I get some! I don't read your posts because I consider ANY argument contrary to the rights of individuals to conduct their sex lives in the manner they wish to be vile and worthless.
How does a woman that chooses to have an abortion violate your rights? Pull your head out of my bedroom and doctor's office.
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Jim Jackson said:
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magicjay38 said:
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thedoctor said:
Sammitch, tim is more interested in losing a discussion on semantics than actually considering the moral and emotional weight of the issue.
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you.
You have decided that all of us who oppose abortion frame our reasoning in that fashion. I have tried to present another way of looking at it. You're choosing to discount and disregard it. I don't see what else there is to do.
You, of all people, are trying to impose your values on heterosexual couples and single women. You and I may think that children are wonderful things, but others may view them as a pain in the ass! You don't want the police in your bedroom or regulating your sexual practices. Why do you think it's alright to discriminate against hetro people?
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the G-man said:
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magicjay38 said:
The moral and emotional weight of the issue is zero. If you oppose abortion, then by all means, don't have one. Sorry, I forgot you're all middle class white men seeking to impose your values on women that disagree with you.
Given that one of the big anti-abortion posters in this debate has been batwoman, that last comment does little but demonstrate your failings in this debate.
It's not my fault batwoman is a self loathing fool! Grow a dick, batwoman, you really want to be one of the boys anyway!
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magicjay38 said:
You, of all people, are trying to impose your values on heterosexual couples and single women. You and I may think that children are wonderful things, but others may view them as a pain in the ass! You don't want the police in your bedroom or regulating your sexual practices. Why do you think it's alright to discriminate against hetro people?
I don't view it as discriminating against women. I view it as supporting the rights that I think developing babies have. I'm sorry if being pregnant infringes upon women's abilities to conduct their lives as though they didn't have sexual intercourse.
We all wear a green carnation.
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magicjay38 said:
[ I don't read your posts because I consider ANY argument contrary to the rights of individuals to conduct their sex lives in the manner they wish to be vile and worthless.
Then I guess we're done...
Just because I may support the rights of the unborn doesn't mean I'm somehow a closet fascist. And don't think for a minute that I haven't given my position as a gay man who is against aboriton a lot of thought. Maybe I haven't considered all the aspects w.r.t. what the Pill actually does biochemically, but I am abhorred by the idea of invasive physical abortion.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
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magicjay38 said:
You, of all people, are trying to impose your values on heterosexual couples and single women. You and I may think that children are wonderful things, but others may view them as a pain in the ass! You don't want the police in your bedroom or regulating your sexual practices. Why do you think it's alright to discriminate against hetro people?
I don't view it as discriminating against women. I view it as supporting the rights that I think developing babies have. I'm sorry if being pregnant infringes upon women's abilities to conduct their lives as though they didn't have sexual intercourse.
That's where you impose your values. Why do you think your values are better than a pregnant woman's? It's about individual freedoms. Teach your children your values, persuade others of the correctness of your position. Don't try to impose your beliefs on others by force. It's no different than saying you must believe in the Holy Trinity. I see the issue you as one of sexual freedom v. religion, specifically Abrahamic religions which I reject.
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
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Posts: 1,657 |
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Jim Jackson said:
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magicjay38 said:
[ I don't read your posts because I consider ANY argument contrary to the rights of individuals to conduct their sex lives in the manner they wish to be vile and worthless.
Then I guess we're done...
Just because I may support the rights of the unborn doesn't mean I'm somehow a closet fascist. And don't think for a minute that I haven't given my position as a gay man who is against aboriton a lot of thought. Maybe I haven't considered all the aspects w.r.t. what the Pill actually does biochemically, but I am abhorred by the idea of invasive physical abortion.
Don't get your knickers in a knot Jim, that was directed at the Doctor, not you.
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Posts: 24,593 |
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magicjay38 said:
The straight white guy has spoken tremble in fear all that behold his contenance!
What drugs are you on and where can I get some! I don't read your posts because I consider ANY argument contrary to the rights of individuals to conduct their sex lives in the manner they wish to be vile and worthless.
How does a woman that chooses to have an abortion violate your rights? Pull your head out of my bedroom and doctor's office.
Where have I ever said that law needs to follow my opinion?
Dance, monkey. Dance.
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Joined: May 2003
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Quote:
magicjay38 said:
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Jim Jackson said:
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magicjay38 said:
You, of all people, are trying to impose your values on heterosexual couples and single women. You and I may think that children are wonderful things, but others may view them as a pain in the ass! You don't want the police in your bedroom or regulating your sexual practices. Why do you think it's alright to discriminate against hetro people?
I don't view it as discriminating against women. I view it as supporting the rights that I think developing babies have. I'm sorry if being pregnant infringes upon women's abilities to conduct their lives as though they didn't have sexual intercourse.
That's where you impose your values. Why do you think your values are better than a pregnant woman's? It's about individual freedoms. Teach your children your values, persuade others of the correctness of your position. Don't try to impose your beliefs on others by force. It's no different than saying you must believe in the Holy Trinity. I see the issue you as one of sexual freedom v. religion, specifically Abrahamic religions which I reject.
In any society that wants something better than anarchy, there's always some values being imposed on others.
Perhaps I seem hypocritical as the gay man who wants equality but argues against so-called "women's rights" to abortion. But at least for the practice of my sexual freedoms, nobody has to die.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593
Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
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Timelord. Drunkard. 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 24,593 |
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657
1500+ posts
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1500+ posts
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,657 |
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
Quote:
magicjay38 said:
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Jim Jackson said:
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magicjay38 said:
You, of all people, are trying to impose your values on heterosexual couples and single women. You and I may think that children are wonderful things, but others may view them as a pain in the ass! You don't want the police in your bedroom or regulating your sexual practices. Why do you think it's alright to discriminate against hetro people?
I don't view it as discriminating against women. I view it as supporting the rights that I think developing babies have. I'm sorry if being pregnant infringes upon women's abilities to conduct their lives as though they didn't have sexual intercourse.
That's where you impose your values. Why do you think your values are better than a pregnant woman's? It's about individual freedoms. Teach your children your values, persuade others of the correctness of your position. Don't try to impose your beliefs on others by force. It's no different than saying you must believe in the Holy Trinity. I see the issue you as one of sexual freedom v. religion, specifically Abrahamic religions which I reject.
In any society that wants something better than anarchy, there's always some values being imposed on others.
Perhaps I seem hypocritical as the gay man who wants equality but argues against so-called "women's rights" to abortion. But at least for the practice of my sexual freedoms, nobody has to die.
Whether or not someone dies is largely dependant upon when personhood begins. You believe it begins at conception but there are many other possible answers. Some would say it begins with the ability to reason, sometime after birth. Some societies have said it begins with the naming of the child. Roe v. Wade says when the fetus is viable outside the womb. A fertilized ovum is a potential human but so is every cell in your body. Under the right conditions (like a cloning lab) anyone of them is a potential person. What makes the ovum more special than any other cell?
Every woman has a natural right to her own body, which must be defended in law. A woman’s freedom to terminate her pregnancy should never be abridged. Banning abortion would constitute the reinstatement of slavery in America: the subjugation of every pregnant woman to a master nanny state.
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