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cobra kai 15000+ posts
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Bonds began using steroids, vast array of other drugs, in 1998
NEW YORK (AP)Barry Bonds used a vast array of performance-enhancing drugs, including steroids and human growth hormone, for at least five seasons beginning in 1998, according to a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters.
An excerpt of "Game of Shadows," which provides details of the San Francisco slugger's extensive doping program, appears in the March 13 issue of Sports Illustrated.
Bonds, who testified before a San Francisco federal grand jury looking into steroid use by top athletes, repeatedly has denied using performance-enhancing drugs. Phone messages left by The Associated Press seeking comment from his attorney and publicist were not immediately returned Tuesday.
Authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, who led the newspaper's coverage of the BALCO scandal, recount in remarkable detail the specifics of Bonds' drug regimen, which they write started in 1998 with injections of Winstrol, a powerful steroid also linked to Rafael Palmeiro.
According to the book, Bonds was using two designer steroids, known as the cream and the clear, plus insulin, human growth hormone and other performance enhancers by 2001, when he hit 73 home runs to break Mark McGwire's single-season record.
The seven-time NL MVP enters this season with 708 homers, seven shy of passing Babe Ruth and 48 from breaking Hank Aaron's career mark.
"Game of Shadows" is scheduled to be published on March 27 by Gotham Books.
The reporters, who based the book on a two-year investigation, included an extensive summary on their sources, including court documents, affidavits filed by BALCO investigators, documents written by federal agents, grand jury testimony, audio recordings and interviews with more than 200 people.
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
PJP said:
BAN HIM.
Two point:
1) I agree with PJP. Therefore...
2) Prepare for the Apocalypse.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
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I think Bonds is inoocent.
Sincerely,
Mark McGwire.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/blogban3.jpg) [/center] [center] ![[Linked Image from i13.photobucket.com]](http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a275/captainsammitch/boards/banners/jlamiska.jpg) [/center]
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"Hey this is PCG342's bro..." 15000+ posts
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Jason Giambi signed that, too.
Thanks.
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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graemlin protector 6000+ posts
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graemlin protector 6000+ posts
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i never signed anything. period.
raphael palmiero
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"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Quote:
big_pimp_tim said:
i never signed anything. period.
raphael palmiero
heh
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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JLA for MO....oh....
999,999 Points, Sucka!
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
Quote:
PJP said:
BAN HIM.
Two point:
1) I agree with PJP. Therefore...
2) Prepare for the Apocalypse.
You took the words right out of my mouth,JM.
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further proof you are out to get me.
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Inglourious Basterd!!! 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
Bonds began using steroids, vast array of other drugs, in 1998
NEW YORK (AP)
I ...am...SHOCKED!!!
Animalman must be crushed.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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10000+ posts
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It's true, I was taken completely by surprise. I've never even heard of "steroids". Frankly, until I see actual photographic evidence of Barry Bonds(holding up his drivers license and social security card so I know it's him) shoving needles with the words "steroids" written across them into his biceps, combined with a video recording of his muscle mass increasing over the passage of time, I take all of this with a grain of salt.
Really, when you think about it, it all sounds too far fetched. Athletes don't cheat. They're good, honest, hardworking, upstanding citizens. They don't murder their wives and vow to spend the rest of their life searching for the "real" killer. They don't accidentally shoot their servants, then alter evidence to make it look like a suicide. They don't rape teenage hotel employees in Colorado, or arrange the murder of their pregnant girlfriends. These people are our role models. To suggest otherwise...well, that makes you a racist. There, I said it.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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MVP 25+ posts
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Bitch couldn't get enough of my big black cock.
Oh and Barry cheated in sports. That's way worse than what I did. Ban that motherfucker. I scored over 80 in one game. Bitch.
I'm Innocent. I Get Pussy All The Time. I Don't Need To Assault Anyone!
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Well, Kobe must be right. Afterall, he does play basketball for a living.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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6000+ posts
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Quote:
Animalman said:
It's true, I was taken completely by surprise. I've never even heard of "steroids". Frankly, until I see actual photographic evidence of Barry Bonds(holding up his drivers license and social security card so I know it's him) shoving needles with the words "steroids" written across them into his biceps, combined with a video recording of his muscle mass increasing over the passage of time, I take all of this with a grain of salt.
Really, when you think about it, it all sounds too far fetched. Athletes don't cheat. They're good, honest, hardworking, upstanding citizens. They don't murder their wives and vow to spend the rest of their life searching for the "real" killer. They don't accidentally shoot their servants, then alter evidence to make it look like a suicide. They don't rape teenage hotel employees in Colorado, or arrange the murder of their pregnant girlfriends. These people are our role models. To suggest otherwise...well, that makes you a racist. There, I said it.
And they also don't bet on baseball and lie about it for 15 years.
And they don't say that the Kennedys killed Marilyn Monroe.
And god knows none of them is gay.
We all wear a green carnation.
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"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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Public Enemy #4 4000+ posts
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If I may have a moment to be serious...
I'll begin by saying I'm a casual baseball fan. I know the sport fairly well but I'm not as big a fan as I am of football or basketball.
That said, I'd like to know what the real deal is with Barry Bonds.
Make no mistake: I absolutely think the guy did steroids. I lived in Pittsburgh from 1987 to 1992...the years of skinny Barry. Anybody who saw him then and has seen him over the last few years would know that he's on something. The body will change as one gets older but not like his has changed.
What I want to know is what do you think about his Hall of Fame chances? So many people think that he shouldn't even be eligible. So many people think that he should be banned from the sport a la Pete Rose. What do you guys think? Seriously.
I think it's a damn shame he used an illegal substance to help his performance. I think, whether there is conclusive, irrefutable evidence of his steroid use OR NOT, he has been convicted in the court of public opinion and his name, like Mark McGuire, Raphael Palmerio. jose Canseco and Jason Giambi will always be associated with steroids. This effects Bonds status more then a banning or not letting him into the hall. At this point, even the most casual of sports fan knows who Bonds is and associates him with 'roids. Once he leaves the sport, either thru retirement or ejection, he will eventually become a pariah on a parr with O.J. to most of the American sports loving public.
That said; I DO NOT believe that Bonds should be stripped of any of his numbers, have his records asterick'd, be banned from the sport or be black balled from Hall Of Fame consideration.
Addressing the H.O.F. issue: If you look at his numbers pre 1998 his credentials are right there. He'd been MVP 3 times, He had almost 400 home runs, over 400 stolen bases, a lifetime batting average right around .300, he'd won 7 gold gloves and he was generally refered to as the best player in baseball...perhaps ever. If you extrapolate his numbers from pre-98, if he hadn't used roids, his numbers would still be astronomical. Barring injury, he would be well over 600 homers and still have 500 stolen bases. He's always had the good eye around the plate so he still would have had a shitload of walks and very few strike outs. If he'd quit in '97, his numbers then were proably good enough to get him in. Based on overall numbers Bonds is a first ballet H.O.Fer. Just pre-98 numbers wouild have probably gotten him in 2 or 3 years into his eligiblity.
Addressing the banning issue: Let's say Bonds used steroids between '98 and '04. At that time they were not banned by baseball. Even though roids are illegal, baseball had no policy against their use and could not overtly discipline any player discovered to be using them at the time. Yes, roids are now a banned substance since baseball's 'hand' was forced by Congress. If Bonds tests positively for roid use NOW he can and should be punished. However, how can you seriously suggest that baseball should retroactively punish him for something that wasn't against the game's rules at the time he used them? That would be like Rob deciding that he no longer enjoys being called gay, making it a bannable offense starting today yet going back thru every old post and banning everyone who's ever called him gay since the inception of these boards. There'd be nobody here but him and PrincessElisa.
Concerning the numbers themsleves: There's no way to know how many players used 'roids during the era and how all baseball numbers were effected by them. Obviously we can look at the inflated home run numbers. But, how do we know that Ricky Henderson didn't use them, thereby tainting the stolen base record? What if Joe Carter used them? Should we disallow his home run in the '93 World Series and give it to the Phillies? What if Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Kurt Schilling, etc. were shooting up? What do you do about the strike outs and wins? To try to retroactively remove numbers is assinine. You want to refer to the mid 90s to 2004 as The Steroid Era? Fine. But how can you selectively disallow some numbers and not others? And without conclusive proof of steroid use AT THAT TIME by any particular player, no numbers can or should be sticken, changed or otherwise altered.
I think there's several reasons that Bonds is facing so much harsh criticism. The overwhelming one is his public persona. Bonds has never been particularily likable. He's never presented the most appealing personality to the fans or, especially of note here, the media. It's very easy to crucify the guy that comes off like an asshole anyway.
Another reason has to be the fact that he's shown no remorse or regret for anything that's occurred. Hell, he hasn't even given one of those "no Admittance" apologies that Giambi gave. I think that if Bonds had come out ahead of the curve on this...admitted steroid use right after the Balco hearings...it would have gone a long way towards rehabbing his image.
Finally, I think race is definitely a factor in the slamming of Bonds. Face it...baseball is more the sport of "white America" than the other 2 major sports. There's a larger percentage of white players participating and excelling in baseball compared to football or basketball. Most of the records in the sport are held by white men. In this case, a Black man has a chance to hold the 2 most sacred records in a sport more defined by its records than any other sport. I think that there may be a small percentage of people who are using the steroid issue to mask the fact that they don't want this "uppity negro" anywhere near the sainted Babe. I'm sure most of you won't agree with this last point but, it is my opinion.
Anyhow, I think Bonds should walk away. Now. His legacy is either forever cemented or forever tainted. The numbers that he puts up this year or next don't really matter. The home run record doesn't matter. He'll never be accepted as anything other than a fraud anyway.
No. He should walk away now, get involved in some high profile charity activities...maybe start a decent inner city focused baseball program to get more black youth into the sport...and spend the next 5 years rehabbing his image.
2 or 3 years from now, after the issue has had sufficiant time to fade, address the steroid use with somebody like Chris Berman on Sports Center. Fess up to most of it. Come up with a reason that some people will find acceptable...couldn't accept the erosion of skills, did it to increase his team's chance of winning, whatever...and accept the shitstorm that will accompany it. Be accesible to the media. Don't be phony but, be contrite. I gaurantee if he does these things, he'll still go into the hall when his 5 years are up and he'll have had a large hand in helping the sport heal and clean it's image after the Great Steroid Debate.
Thoughts?
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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Educator to comprehension impaired (JLA, that is you) 50000+ posts
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Quote:
Addressing the H.O.F. issue: If you look at his numbers pre 1998 his credentials are right there. He'd been MVP 3 times, He had almost 400 home runs, over 400 stolen bases, a lifetime batting average right around .300, he'd won 7 gold gloves and he was generally refered to as the best player in baseball...perhaps ever. If you extrapolate his numbers from pre-98, if he hadn't used roids, his numbers would still be astronomical. Barring injury, he would be well over 600 homers and still have 500 stolen bases. He's always had the good eye around the plate so he still would have had a shitload of walks and very few strike outs. If he'd quit in '97, his numbers then were proably good enough to get him in. Based on overall numbers Bonds is a first ballet H.O.Fer. Just pre-98 numbers wouild have probably gotten him in 2 or 3 years into his eligiblity.
The barring injury is the most gleaning part of it. Ken Griffey Jrs' numbers were astronomical, but he has had several muscle,tendon, hamstring injuries. All these things are less likely with anabolic steroids. Your muscle tissue is stronger,denser,less prone to injury. Not impossible to injure, many weight lifters get pectorial injuries from over exersion, but your not likely to push those limits in baseball. So to put him in the same club with a Roger Maris who we know played through and overcome injuries on his own I think would be a mistake.
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bsams, I know that seroids can have am effect on injury prevention as well as strengthening some of the connective muscle tissues. My point was that his pre 98 numbers could very well be enough to get him into The Hall. He'd never had any major injusries before '98 and while it's impossible to say that he would or wouldn't have, I think it's safe to say that if he stayed healthy from 98 to '04, even with the natural erosion of skills he would have added to his already great numbers and made them huge.
If Bonds had been forced to retire at the end of the 97 season, do you think his numbers at that time would have gotten him into the Hall? I think yes.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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Quote:
THE Bastard said:
Addressing the H.O.F. issue: If you look at his numbers pre 1998 his credentials are right there. He'd been MVP 3 times, He had almost 400 home runs, over 400 stolen bases, a lifetime batting average right around .300, he'd won 7 gold gloves and he was generally refered to as the best player in baseball...perhaps ever. If you extrapolate his numbers from pre-98, if he hadn't used roids, his numbers would still be astronomical. Barring injury, he would be well over 600 homers and still have 500 stolen bases. He's always had the good eye around the plate so he still would have had a shitload of walks and very few strike outs. If he'd quit in '97, his numbers then were proably good enough to get him in. Based on overall numbers Bonds is a first ballet H.O.Fer. Just pre-98 numbers wouild have probably gotten him in 2 or 3 years into his eligiblity.
I could live with Bonds being accepted into the H.O.F. as if he retired after '97. He really may have been the best ever, but we will never really know. Still, his numbers at that point might be enough to get him in, and I'm fine with that.
However, when it comes to the home run records...
Quote:
THE Bastard said:
Finally, I think race is definitely a factor in the slamming of Bonds. Face it...baseball is more the sport of "white America" than the other 2 major sports. There's a larger percentage of white players participating and excelling in baseball compared to football or basketball. Most of the records in the sport are held by white men. In this case, a Black man has a chance to hold the 2 most sacred records in a sport more defined by its records than any other sport. I think that there may be a small percentage of people who are using the steroid issue to mask the fact that they don't want this "uppity negro" anywhere near the sainted Babe. I'm sure most of you won't agree with this last point but, it is my opinion.
I don't care what color, race, ethnicity, whatever the person is who holds the record. What I do care about is if there is undeniable evidence of cheating to aquire said record(s). Bonds cheated to get the records. Could he have gotten them on his own, without steroids? We'll never know, because he cheated.
That said, McGuire also cheated. So did Sosa. These guys have disgraced the sport and the record book. The 61 home runs hit by Maris should stand, until someone breaks the record without extra help.
And the same goes for any other records broken during this era. If the player who set the records gets caught, roll the records back. Can we prove if cheating didn't go on before? No, we can't. But if the 'roid users are made an example of, maybe that will discourage the next group of cheaters before they get any ideas in their heads.
As for letting any of these guys play, if they are clean, let them play. If Bonds can come back this year clean and have a good season, good for him. As long as he's not cheating, I say play ball. And that goes for everyone else, too.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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I agree with Pen Wing almost 100%.....scary.
Erase Mcgwire and Sosa's home runs from their record setting year.....and then erase all of Bond's home runs from 98 till present. I think most everyone can live with that except for people who want to play the race card.
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Barry Bonds is a first ballot Hall of Famer based on his pre 1998 numbers. I really don't think anyone can argue to the contrary. He was the best player of the 90's; be tter than Griffey and McGwire or whoever else is often falsely given that title. He deserves a place in the Hall, that's all I know. Really, to be honest, I don't care if they take away his home run records or whatever, but I think it's worth noting that, at least according to reports, he's yet to fail a drug test, in the three full years that the MLB has administered them. Maybe he's using a masking agent; I don't know enough about that stuff to comment. Regardless, I hope they acquire sufficient proof before they take away the game's most revered record, and stifle the numbers of the most dominant baseball player in history. Quote:
PenWing said:
I don't care what color, race, ethnicity, whatever the person is who holds the record. What I do care about is if there is undeniable evidence of cheating to aquire said record(s). Bonds cheated to get the records. Could he have gotten them on his own, without steroids? We'll never know, because he cheated.
That said, McGuire also cheated. So did Sosa. These guys have disgraced the sport and the record book. The 61 home runs hit by Maris should stand, until someone breaks the record without extra help.
Here's the problem: they didn't "cheat". Do I think it was wrong? Yes. Do I think they lied after the fact, which compounded the wrong? Absolutely. I think they should be punished for lying, and I think they deserve the public scrutiny they receive for having gotten themselves into the situation in the first place.
But you can't say they "cheated". There was no rule against it. Saying they cheated exonerates the people who deserve to shoulder a part of the blame for this entire thing.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I agree with Animalman. Doctoring the baseball is cheating. Stealing signs is cheating. Corking a bat is cheating. All of those things have a definite effect on the outcome of a game. They are all against the written or unspoken rules of the game.
I am not absolutely positive that steroids can directly effect the performance of a baseball player. Yeah, they make a player become able to work out longer and harder. Yeah, that player is able to recover faster to work out more, thereby becoming stronger. But the arguement is still the same. Steroids can't help you hit the baseball. They will not increase the hand-eye coordination that is necessary to play major league baseball. In the case of players like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, even Canseco...they had homerun power to begin with. The ball would still be gone whether it's 2 rows in the stands or out of the park.
I think cheating means one player must definitely do something that he beleives will positively effect the very nature of the sport FOR his team. Steroids may or may not positively effect the performance of a specific player but it does not translate to an advantage for his team. What was The Cardinals record the yaer McGwire hit 71? Did Bonds win the World Series the year he hit 73? Sosa hit 60 or more 3 or 4 years straight. Did the Cubs even make the playoffs in those years?
Now, if you want to say that a player cheats the fans or the "institution" of baseball or even himself by using steroids, I'll aggree with that. That's a whole different thing.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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Quote:
THE Bastard said:
Now, if you want to say that a player cheats the fans or the "institution" of baseball or even himself by using steroids, I'll aggree with that. That's a whole different thing.
I'll say that, and if I do, then I also have to say that all of those guys should be banned from the hall. If a guy can't get in for gambling, then players who have pissed on the game itself most certainly should not be given the honor.
As for what steroids can do for a baseball player...
Maybe McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds where able to have those big home run seasons because the didn't get just tired enough late in games so they could still hit with just enough power. Or maybe they didn't get just tired enough as the season went on so they could maintain their power. Or maybe all the steroids did to them was allow them to heal faster so they could play more. I really don't know exactly how steroids effect a player in a non contact sport.
Steroids would make them run faster, and give them better endurance, so Palmerio's record doesn't hold any water as far as I'm concerned. I can see how steroids helped him along, and he was caught using before he broke the record, so he was cheating after the rules were changed. But I don't think anyone here disagrees about Palmerio.
It's the home run records that come into question. I wish someone had an answer. The argument is that steroids can turn a single into a double, a double into a tripple, and a high tripple into a home run. I can't argue against that, and if that is the case, than I find myself asking how many of McGuire's, Sosa's, and Bonds' home runs should have been tripples or outs.
<sub>Will Eisner's last work - The Plot: The Secret Story of the Protocols of the Elders of ZionRDCW Profile"Well, as it happens, I wrote the damned SOP," Illescue half snarled, "and as of now, you can bar those jackals from any part of this facility until Hell's a hockey rink! Is that perfectly clear?!" - Dr. Franz Illescue - Honor Harrington: At All Costs"I don't know what I'm do, or how I do, I just do." - Alexander Ovechkin</sub>
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PJP said:
Erase Mcgwire and Sosa's home runs from their record setting year.....and then erase all of Bond's home runs from 98 till present. I think most everyone can live with that except for people who want to play the race card.
I'm not sure I understand you. What does race have to do with removing the numbers? I brought up race simply as one small contributing factor to why Bonds is being excorated by the media. It's actually the last thing that I cite as a possible factor and I think if there is some racial bias against him, it is far outweighed by the fact that he is a big giant festering asshole and treats those around him like shit.
Race has nothing to do with your scenario at all as long as you want ALL the guys that are suspected of using steroids to lose their numbers. Now, if you were to advocate erasing just Bonds' and Sosa's numbers and leaving McGwire's, then I'd think that YOU were the one playing the race card. My attitude is simply that you can't erase the numbers of anyone for using steroids, when :
A) they were not against the rules of baseball at the time of use.
 there is no positive drug test to remove all doubt that a player used them.
C) you have absolutely no idea how widespread steroid usage was at the time.
If 85% of the league was using them, then you could argue that there was absolutely no advantage to be gained from steroid use...it was simply a matter of being able to compete on a level playing field. While I doubt this is the case, the point is, we will never know.
I've never been that black guy that always says "Whitey" is persecuting a brutha simply for his skin color. There are many more compelling factors that justify the scrutiny of Bonds than the color of his skin. The only "race card" that I play is to acknowledge the fact that he is black and to suggest that there may be some people with a racially motivated agenda against him.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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THE Bastard said:
I am not absolutely positive that steroids can directly effect the performance of a baseball player. Yeah, they make a player become able to work out longer and harder. Yeah, that player is able to recover faster to work out more, thereby becoming stronger. But the arguement is still the same. Steroids can't help you hit the baseball. They will not increase the hand-eye coordination that is necessary to play major league baseball. In the case of players like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, even Canseco...they had homerun power to begin with. The ball would still be gone whether it's 2 rows in the stands or out of the park.
As far as steroids effecting numbers, I'll assume you don't know who Jason Giambi is.
And as far as a ball 2 rows back mor out of the stands, since you agree that roids just make a 2 rows back go out of the stands then you agree a warning track fly would make the second row.
I don't really believe you naive enough to believe that incresewd individual performance doesnt help a team win.
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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
As far as steroids effecting numbers, I'll assume you don't know who Jason Giambi is.
So you're saying he got back on steroids in '05? I won't necessarily disagree with you if you say yes(as I said, I don't know enough about masking agents and such to say with absolution that he wasn't), but a lot of people took notice of his decrease in size in 2004, and subsequent struggles at the plate. Last year he had a terrific year, and didn't fail a drug test.
Furthermore, Giambi's 2004 trainwreck of a season was partly(and I can't begin to quantify to what extent) due to numerous ailments with absolutely no known ties to steroid withdrawal. Intenstinal parasites, respiratory infections, a tumor, etc.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
THE Bastard said:
Quote:
PJP said:
Erase Mcgwire and Sosa's home runs from their record setting year.....and then erase all of Bond's home runs from 98 till present. I think most everyone can live with that except for people who want to play the race card.
I'm not sure I understand you. What does race have to do with removing the numbers? I brought up race simply as one small contributing factor to why Bonds is being excorated by the media. It's actually the last thing that I cite as a possible factor and I think if there is some racial bias against him, it is far outweighed by the fact that he is a big giant festering asshole and treats those around him like shit.
Race has nothing to do with your scenario at all as long as you want ALL the guys that are suspected of using steroids to lose their numbers. Now, if you were to advocate erasing just Bonds' and Sosa's numbers and leaving McGwire's, then I'd think that YOU were the one playing the race card. My attitude is simply that you can't erase the numbers of anyone for using steroids, when :
A) they were not against the rules of baseball at the time of use.
there is no positive drug test to remove all doubt that a player used them.
C) you have absolutely no idea how widespread steroid usage was at the time.
If 85% of the league was using them, then you could argue that there was absolutely no advantage to be gained from steroid use...it was simply a matter of being able to compete on a level playing field. While I doubt this is the case, the point is, we will never know.
I've never been that black guy that always says "Whitey" is persecuting a brutha simply for his skin color. There are many more compelling factors that justify the scrutiny of Bonds than the color of his skin. The only "race card" that I play is to acknowledge the fact that he is black and to suggest that there may be some people with a racially motivated agenda against him.
In no way was I trying to single you out at all. I know however that if they did what I suggested there will be people crying "it's beacuase he's black". Sorry if you thought I meant you.
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PenWing said:
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THE Bastard said:
Now, if you want to say that a player cheats the fans or the "institution" of baseball or even himself by using steroids, I'll aggree with that. That's a whole different thing.
I'll say that, and if I do, then I also have to say that all of those guys should be banned from the hall. If a guy can't get in for gambling, then players who have pissed on the game itself most certainly should not be given the honor.
The difference is gambling was and still is the biggest no-no in baseball. Maybe in all of professional sports. There was incontravertable evidence that Rose gambled on baseball. He lied about it for more than a decade then finally decided to come clean as a last ditch effort to get re-instated and voted into the Hall. I'm not sure that steroids deserves that level of punishment. Hell, I actually believe that Rose should be in the Hall. But, until he's re-instated, he is not eligible.
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As for what steroids can do for a baseball player...
Maybe McGuire, Sosa, and Bonds where able to have those big home run seasons because the didn't get just tired enough late in games so they could still hit with just enough power. Or maybe they didn't get just tired enough as the season went on so they could maintain their power. Or maybe all the steroids did to them was allow them to heal faster so they could play more. I really don't know exactly how steroids effect a player in a non contact sport.
Steroids would make them run faster, and give them better endurance, so Palmerio's record doesn't hold any water as far as I'm concerned. I can see how steroids helped him along, and he was caught using before he broke the record, so he was cheating after the rules were changed. But I don't think anyone here disagrees about Palmerio.
My biggest question about steroids is this: If they really have such a dramatic effect on a player's stats, how come we didn't see a huge increase in numbers by more players. I think we all realize that steroid use had to have been much more widespread than just the guys we always hear about. If so many guys were using, why didn't we see more guys going from 10 or 12 homers hit to 30 or 40 in just one year. I think there are some instances of this...Brady Anderson with the Orioles comes to mind...but not as many as you'd think there would be if steroids really improved performance that dramatically.
Palmerio's numbers suggest he should be in the Hall but, I think he was marginal before the 'roid revelation came out. I doubt he'll get in and most folks wouldn't care regardless.
Quote:
It's the home run records that come into question. I wish someone had an answer. The argument is that steroids can turn a single into a double, a double into a tripple, and a high tripple into a home run. I can't argue against that, and if that is the case, than I find myself asking how many of McGuire's, Sosa's, and Bonds' home runs should have been tripples or outs.
Just as you can't argue against the power progression, I can't argue for it. If steroids was such the overall boon to power numbers, then why didn't each of those guys jack it out of the yard everytime they made contact? Other factors come into play when hitting a baseball to determine if it's going to be single or double. Most triples are either misplays in the field or the ball going to the most advantageous spot in the park at exactly the right moment. Doubles have more to do with the speed of the runner/arm of the thrower than power of the hitter. I don't think any of these hitters would have had many homers that should have been triples. Bonds hits for average as well as power...when given the chance to hit the ball. Most of his base hits other than homers are singles because he can't run the bases anymore. Sosa and McGwire struck out more than they put the ball into play. I doubt either of them hit 20 triples in their careers.
Oderint, dum metuant.
You are a god damned idiot, you know that? You ought to be smacked upside your dumb-fuck head, even after all these years. Shame on you! -USCHI showin' some love
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10000+ posts
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PJP said:
oh and I'm drunk.
Drunk from the tears of Snarf.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
As far as steroids effecting numbers, I'll assume you don't know who Jason Giambi is.
So you're saying he got back on steroids in '05? I won't necessarily disagree with you if you say yes(as I said, I don't know enough about masking agents and such to say with absolution that he wasn't), but a lot of people took notice of his decrease in size in 2004, and subsequent struggles at the plate. Last year he had a terrific year, and didn't fail a drug test.
Furthermore, Giambi's 2004 trainwreck of a season was partly(and I can't begin to quantify to what extent) due to numerous ailments with absolutely no known ties to steroid withdrawal. Intenstinal parasites, respiratory infections, a tumor, etc.
if you consider averaging 10 less hrs 20-30 less rbis performing the same post steroids then i guess you wouldnt consider steroids as an advantage. to me thats quite an advantage.
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just out of curiosity , do you think that giambi and bonds seem like fairly intelligent men?
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It's like these new modern porn stars that use Viagra. It's not fair to guys like Ron Jeremy that used to get all hard and shit on their own. Now anyone can be a porn star.
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Quote:
PJP said:
It's like these new modern porn stars that use Viagra. It's not fair to guys like Ron Jeremy that used to get all hard and shit on their own. Now anyone can be a porn star.
also look at wal-mart, lonely unatractive money leaches used to have to bug their parents for days for money to get socks to fuck now with wal-mart they can go get a whole pack for like $3
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if you consider averaging 10 less hrs 20-30 less rbis performing the same post steroids then i guess you wouldnt consider steroids as an advantage. to me thats quite an advantage.
Yeah, he "only" hit 32 HR, last year, but he did it in more than 100 fewer at bats, though. Look at his AB/HR ratio:
2000: 11.86
2001: 13.68
2002: 13.66
2003: 13.05
2005: 13.03
He was hitting homers at a near-career high pace. He just didn't play as much due to the fact that he wasn't reinstalled as the full-time DH until about a month in the season(and because he still had a few nagging injuries left over from his disastrous 2004 campaign). Stretch his numbers to his usual 550 at bats and he hits 42 HR, and drives in 115 runs. Of course, RBI is kind of an arbitrary number, anyway.
Based on OPS, OPS+ and EqA(the three standard sabermetric stats), he had his best season as a Yankee.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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