RKMBs Forums .::Robegories::. Sports and Wrestling Bonds began using steroids, vast array of other drugs, in 1998

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Animalman said:

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if you consider averaging 10 less hrs 20-30 less rbis performing the same post steroids then i guess you wouldnt consider steroids as an advantage. to me thats quite an advantage.

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Yeah, he "only" hit 32 HR, last year, but he did it in more than 100 fewer at bats, though. Look at his AB/HR ratio:

2000: 11.86
2001: 13.68
2002: 13.66
2003: 13.05
2005: 13.03

He was hitting homers at a near-career high pace. He just didn't play as much due to the fact that he wasn't reinstalled as the full-time DH until about a month in the season(and because he still had a few nagging injuries left over from his disastrous 2004 campaign). Stretch his numbers to his usual 550 at bats and he hits 42 HR, and drives in 115 runs. Of course, RBI is kind of an arbitrary number, anyway.

Based on OPS, OPS+ and EqA(the three standard sabermetric stats), he had his best season as a Yankee.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:

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Animalman said:

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if you consider averaging 10 less hrs 20-30 less rbis performing the same post steroids then i guess you wouldnt consider steroids as an advantage. to me thats quite an advantage.

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Yeah, he "only" hit 32 HR, last year, but he did it in more than 100 fewer at bats, though. Look at his AB/HR ratio:

2000: 11.86
2001: 13.68
2002: 13.66
2003: 13.05
2005: 13.03

He was hitting homers at a near-career high pace. He just didn't play as much due to the fact that he wasn't reinstalled as the full-time DH until about a month in the season(and because he still had a few nagging injuries left over from his disastrous 2004 campaign). Stretch his numbers to his usual 550 at bats and he hits 42 HR, and drives in 115 runs. Of course, RBI is kind of an arbitrary number, anyway.

Based on OPS, OPS+ and EqA(the three standard sabermetric stats), he had his best season as a Yankee.

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didnt play as much because he wasnt as good.

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Animalman said:
I think they're both geniuses, of course. They should be working for NASA. Why?

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:

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THE Bastard said:


I am not absolutely positive that steroids can directly effect the performance of a baseball player. Yeah, they make a player become able to work out longer and harder. Yeah, that player is able to recover faster to work out more, thereby becoming stronger. But the arguement is still the same. Steroids can't help you hit the baseball. They will not increase the hand-eye coordination that is necessary to play major league baseball. In the case of players like Bonds, Mcgwire, Sosa, even Canseco...they had homerun power to begin with. The ball would still be gone whether it's 2 rows in the stands or out of the park.

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As far as steroids effecting numbers, I'll assume you don't know who Jason Giambi is.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:

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Animalman said:
I think they're both geniuses, of course. They should be working for NASA. Why?

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i just wonder why people think fairly intelligent people, would inject a substance in their body, that makes them moody, shrinks their testicles,causes liver and kidney damage, makes them prone to tumors, and they get no benefit from it. thye see their performance first hand, they know it inside and out. they still have to train as hard as they ever did,and their performance didnt increase, but they are so addicted to the needles and ass pimples that they just cant stop? that doesnt seem very smart?

i would take a guess that they are intelligent, they see they dont have to work as hard as they next guy, that their reflexes are quicker, that their stamina is incresed, and that their durability is as well.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i just wonder why people think fairly intelligent people, would inject a substance in their body, that makes them moody, shrinks their testicles,causes liver and kidney damage, makes them prone to tumors

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PJP said:
what do you think about Viagra in the porn industry?

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Animalman said:

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i just wonder why people think fairly intelligent people, would inject a substance in their body, that makes them moody, shrinks their testicles,causes liver and kidney damage, makes them prone to tumors

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Money? Fame? Probably because deep down they're insecure, superficial children incapable of coping with life outside of the sports-spotlight and fixated on instant gratification, regardless of the consequences on their body and future.

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THE Bastard said:

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Animalman said:

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
i just wonder why people think fairly intelligent people, would inject a substance in their body, that makes them moody, shrinks their testicles,causes liver and kidney damage, makes them prone to tumors

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Money? Fame? Probably because deep down they're insecure, superficial children incapable of coping with life outside of the sports-spotlight and fixated on instant gratification, regardless of the consequences on their body and future.

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good point, also.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
He makes a argument that their performance is the same with roids

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Animalman said:
Who, Bonds? What does the idea of cheating have to do with saying that a person's performance would be the same with or without 'roids?

I say that they weren't cheating because it wasn't against the rules at the time. By definition, they weren't cheating. It may seem like semantics, but it's pretty important given the level of attention that misconception receives, especially when you start discussing lifetime bans and comparisons to Pete Rose.

Again, though, to reiterate, that doesn't mean that I think what they did was "right" or "good".

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Even if the substances Bonds took were steroids, Rains said they were not banned by baseball at the time and the slugger believed they were natural.

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THE Bastard said:
In this case, a Black man has a chance to hold the 2 most sacred records in a sport more defined by its records than any other sport.

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im sure mr aaron takes offense to the statement

that aside, i think baseball could be more practically labled as a sport of tradition. legacy. and those are very difficult things to surpass and get over.

when roger maris made his run to ruth's record, he was booed mercilessly. in his own stadium, by his own "fans." and everything was used as an example to cheapen the accomplishment -- even a seperate listing in the record books for 30 some years.

race wasn't an issue -- just established "lore."

if anything, i think today's audience was much more accepting to record breaking. big mac was adored. sammy sosa became, essentially, the icon of the sport. race, ability, and drugs aside, the country welcomed both of them.

barry? ... well... he's really just a cock muncher most of the time, thats why i think he gets the amount of criticism that he does.

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britneyspearsatemyshorts said:
So to put him in the same club with a Roger Maris who we know played through and overcome injuries on his own I think would be a mistake.

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THE Bastard said:
If Bonds had been forced to retire at the end of the 97 season, do you think his numbers at that time would have gotten him into the Hall?

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PenWing said:
he 61 home runs hit by Maris should stand, until someone breaks the record without extra help.

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PenWing said:
That said, McGuire also cheated. So did Sosa. These guys have disgraced the sport and the record book.

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The newest twist, allegedly involving a 1998 conversation between Griffey and Bonds at Griffey's Florida home, is detailed in a new biography by Jeff Pearlman about Bonds entitled, "Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Antihero." The excerpts of the book have yet to be released, but on Tuesday a quote from the book attributed to Bonds was read on ESPN describing how Bonds told Griffey that offseason that he was going to start taking "some hard-core stuff."

"I've been to Barry's house, he's been to my house since we were kids, so that is nothing new," Griffey told a group of reporters. "The conversation that supposedly happened, I don't ever remember happening. That's it. I just don't remember talking about the use of performance-enhancing drugs.

"As baseball players, we're all tired of being asked about Barry and anything that's negative toward our sport," Griffey said. "We have enough problems in the world. Let's talk about those rather than what's happening here."

Griffey said he knows nothing about Bonds using performance-enhancing drugs and said that all of Bonds' 708 homers were accomplished "naturally." Bonds goes into the season six homers behind Babe Ruth's 714 and 47 in arrears of Hank Aaron's 755.

"How do I explain it? He works hard," Griffey said. "I've got cousins who work in gyms. All they do is lift weights and they make Barry look small. When you go in the gym and give 100 percent, you're bound to see results. That's the way things work. I have to do it with rehab -- give 100 percent in rehab to get back on the field."

When asked if he thought Bonds had obtained his strength and size naturally, Griffey said: "Does it really matter what I think?" Pressed again on the question, Griffey said: "Yeah!"

No one has ever insinuated that Griffey used performance-enhancing drugs and on Tuesday, Griffey defended himself on that front when it was posed that all the stats from this era, including his, are tainted.

"You can't look at mine," Griffey said. "You know damn well that what you see is what you get. You can look at other people and speculate all you want. But you guys know that from looking at me, I didn't touch a thing. I don't worry about other people's numbers. You guys know me. I don't worry about your relationships with other people."

The San Francisco Giants will celebrate appropriately if Barry Bonds passes Babe Ruth on the career home run list.

Team owner Peter Magowan and executive vice president Larry Baer vowed Tuesday to honor the organization's star player while also reiterating their commitment to cooperate with the commissioner's office on any investigation into Bonds' alleged steroids use.

Magowan and Baer arrived in Arizona one week after the release of excerpts from an upcoming book revealing Bonds' purported longtime schedule for taking performance-enhancing drugs.

"I recognize this is a serious matter," Magowan said, standing in the dugout before the Giants hosted the Texas Rangers. "It is still a legal proceeding, that's all I can say. ... I can't comment on any of this. It's the position we've taken for two years now."

The Giants brass is brainstorming exactly what to do if Bonds ties Ruth for second place on career list with 714 homers, and then how to honor him if he passes the Babe. Bonds begins the season with 708 home runs, and he connected for his second spring training homer Tuesday against 20-year-old Texas lefty John Danks.

"It's certainly not going to go unnoticed or uncommemorated," Baer said. "He's our player and it would be a tremendous accomplishment. We don't have a hold on what we're going to do. It won't be silence."

This has been a spring of further off-field distractions for Bonds, who was in the lineup as the designated hitter against the Rangers. Bonds played left field for the first time Sunday against San Diego and homered for the first time in only his fourth spring training at-bat.

On Tuesday, he lined a single to the gap in left-center in the first, then led off the fourth by sending a 1-2 pitch from Danks over the wall in right and into the batting cage area.

"Game of Shadows," written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters, is due out later this month, while another book on Bonds — "Love Me, Hate Me: Barry Bonds and the Making of an Antihero" — written by Jeff Pearlman is set for release in late May.

Magowan insists he would sign Bonds again. The 13-time All-Star has been with San Francisco since 1993 after spending his first seven big league seasons in Pittsburgh.

"Winning ballplayer," Magowan said. "He's helped us win."

Baer has been communicating more frequently with commissioner Bud Selig and his staff. Baseball didn't ban steroids until after the 2002 season.

"Obviously this is a story that has a fascination to it," Baer said of everything about Bonds' pursuit. "The commissioner has a review and we're working in lock step with him."

Last August, Magowan said he had mixed feelings about the Giants' decision to give up the right to void 2006, the final year of Bonds' contract — though he originally defended the move. At that point, Bonds hadn't played all year following three operations on his right knee since Jan. 31. He eventually returned for 14 games in September.

The seven-time NL MVP turns 42 in July, so the Giants know his time could come any day if he steps wrong and injures his tender knee.

"I think, from all that I've seen and from that all that I've heard, he's going to do fine," Magowan said. "You never know. He could trudge out to left field at any point and his career could be over. He certainly seems to be able to still hit a baseball. He says he's not in pain. He hasn't done the really tough stuff yet. I'm sure that will happen within the next three weeks."

Bonds said he will need to push his body soon to gauge his true health.

The Giants have already sold about 2.5 million tickets, nearly the same number as last season at this time. Magowan isn't concerned about a fallout from the steroids reports, saying: "I'm pretty confident. I think we know our fans pretty well and the fans like Barry and they show up to see him perform. I suspect they will again."

Bonds' off-the-field issues are something the Giants have been dealing with for several years now.

"We've been through this sort of stuff a lot in the past. I admit it was not as much as it is right now," Magowan said. "The more he can play the better. I don't know what that number is. I think it has to be more than 14."

The best thing Barry Bonds has going for him is the Hall of Fame.

That's because as long as everybody endlessly agonizes about whether he should be elected to Cooperstown sometime years in the future, then less critical vigilance will be applied to him now.

Look, the Hall of Fame is a wonderful honor, but it's still only just moonlight and roses. The National League of this moment, 2006, is substantive, what matters now, so Cooperstown only serves as a convenient diversion for our charming Barry.

The second best thing Bonds has going for him is his home run totals. Nobody is happy that he holds the single-season record. Nobody is happy with the prospect that he might eclipse Henry Aaron's career total. But there is no sense fretting on and on about it. What's done cannot be undone. You can't rewrite history anymore than you can get God to stop the sun ... unless you are Joshua. And Commissioner Bud Selig is not Joshua. Or God.

So rather than looking wistfully ahead to a distant future or wallowing back in the past, let us put aside wistful wallowings and concentrate on the here and now. The idea is for all good people to try to get Barry Bonds out of baseball.

Of course, baseball itself should immediately, pronto, tout de suite start an investigation into his entire history of drug use, which has been documented so thoroughly by Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams in their extraordinary book, Game of Shadows. Some bleeding hearts say, oh, my, so many players took steroids, it isn't fair to single out Bonds. Oh, please. In a crime wave, you go after whatever criminals you can get in your sights. Same with a cheating wave. Investigate Bonds, turn up the heat on him.

If you are a baseball fan, boo his every move. If you are a San Francisco Giants fan, take a shower and stop making excuses for Bonds.

The press should badger him every day. Surly and disingenuous as he is, try to make him accountable.

ESPN should drop a sweetheart reality show that it has given Bonds money to star in. That's disgraceful of the network, especially since it compromises its honest journalists.

The players' association should not knee-jerk come to Bonds' defense. It is no union's responsibility to unequivocally support every member's presumed grievance.

And forthwith and foremost, Selig should announce that if and when Bonds passes Babe Ruth's old record of 714 home runs and Aaron's 755, baseball will offer no congratulations, participate in no ceremony. If the Giants franchise had any honor, it would do the same.

We were all -- the union, the commissioner, the honest players, the media, the fans -- complicit in letting the steroid era run rampant. All the perfumes of Arabia will not sweeten that time. Maybe, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, we cannot even convict Bonds of anything. But we can do our best to reject him and say, you're a stain on the game, Barry Bonds -- go away and leave baseball alone.

Out, I say. Out!

Baseball will reportedly investigate the steroids controversy swirling around Barry Bonds.

The New York Daily News reported Thursday that commissioner Bud Selig has already decided to begin an investigation, according to an unidentified baseball official.

Barry Bonds
Bonds

The newspaper said Selig is expected to announce the decision next week, but hadn't yet decided if the investigation would be done by Major League Baseball officials or outside investigators.

Two books that are being released this spring accuse Bonds of using steroids, human growth hormone and insulin for at least five seasons beginning in 1998. Baseball did not ban performance-enhancing substances until after the 2002 season, and Bonds has denied ever knowingly using performance-enhancing drugs.

Selig also faces pressure from Congress. On Wednesday, Rep. Cliff Stearns, who previously sponsored legislation calling for tougher drug testing in pro sports, sent the commissioner a letter asking about his role in policing steroid use from 1998 to 2002.

"As commissioner, you have the essential responsibility to safeguard the integrity of the game and to ensure that cheaters have no place in professional baseball," Stearns said in the letter.

Specifically, the Florida Republican asked Selig for information about a 2004 meeting with Bonds, baseball's policy for addressing alleged steroid use if a player doesn't fail a drug test and what Selig's authority is to investigate alleged steroid use.

Under pressure from Congress before last season, the players' association agreed to toughen drug testing rules and penalties.

Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home run record in 2001 and is approaching Babe Ruth's career total.

Now it's just a question of whether his surgically repaired right knee is ready for the daily rigors of playing in the field.

Bonds, in the lineup on back-to-back days for the first time this spring, homered for the second straight day and made a brief appearance in left field in the Giants' 10-6 victory Wednesday over the Brewers.

Despite being hounded by allegations of steroid use and slowed by his knee, Bonds is in midseason form at the plate. He is 7-for-9 with three home runs and a double in four games.

He played in left for the second time this spring, leaving after his homer in the bottom of the second inning.

Bonds has 708 home runs in his career, seven shy of passing Ruth and 48 away from breaking Hank Aaron's career record of 755.

Selig would not publicly commit to an investigation last week.

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PenWing said:
Selig is a pansy.

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Joe Mama said:
Selig is as guilty as Bonds is, and he knows it. He'll drag his feet until he absolutely can't anymore. But this thing will take him down just as hard as it'll take Barry.

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Animalman said:

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Joe Mama said:
Selig is as guilty as Bonds is, and he knows it. He'll drag his feet until he absolutely can't anymore. But this thing will take him down just as hard as it'll take Barry.

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The thing is, this isn't like Pete Rose being investigated. Bonds is far from the only suspect here. If he investigates Bonds, won't he also have to look at Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, etc?

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Jim Jackson said:
Technically no, since those three are not currently active.

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