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Jeter pwns Ortiz and Yes Ani those were Ortiz's own words.
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Jeter probably knows he's going to win it. I'd be surprised if he didn't.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Rangers Vs. Tigers tonight! You and Bradwing going to bet?
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I'll bet $100 that one of the two teams win.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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I broke Joe Mama again. Twice in one month now.
I win again.
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Just waiting for you to tell me what Henry et al did that was worse than the shit Steinbrenner pulled with Winfield, particularly regarding certain payments to his charity that weren't made. Worse than taking away employees' dental benefits. You made some nasty accusations towards ownership and towards Ortiz, but you don't tell me where they come from. Can't really respond to or defend unsubstantiated accusations, now can I? And it'd be too easy to point out real, documented instances of assholery on your team's part...
I won't defend the arsehole who took a swipe at Sheffield. I think I mentioned in this thread that I was at that game and thought it was shitty and not what a TRUE fan would do. But I think I can safely point out that plenty of Yankees fans (and plenty of Red Sox fans) have done similar things to the opposing teams.
I agree with most of Ani's point, though I wonder what he thinks of Travis Hafner, another DH who warranted consideration last year.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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I wipe my ass with David Ortiz.
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Not surprising that you like having David Ortiz in your ass.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful.
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Quote:
PJP said:
Don't hate me cause I'm beautiful.
How could I ever hate you? You're TOO beautiful!
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
I agree with most of Ani's point, though I wonder what he thinks of Travis Hafner, another DH who warranted consideration last year.
I think Hafner is the best hitter in the AL, and has been the last three years. Unfortunately, injuries(mostly of the freakish kind) seem to follow him. He's yet to play more than 140 games in a season. If he played the rest of this year, barring collapse, he probably would have been my pick for MVP.
Based on the way the writers usually vote, my guess is the MVP will be Jeter, Dye, or Santana. Ironically, Ortiz may end up with the best numbers(and I don't mean homeruns or RBI, which I think Ortiz attaches a bit too much value to in his complaint), thanks in no small part to the injuries that have plagued Hafner, Ramirez, and Thome. I find that ironic because it would mean that, in just one year, Ortiz had gone from the guy sportswriters undeservingly championed as the MVP, to the guy sportswriters unfairly cast aside due to his team's collapse.
Disqualifying Hafner, I would vote for Dye as the MVP right now. He and Ortiz are very close offensively, but Dye's defensive value puts him ahead. Jeter, Manny and Mauer would round out my top 5.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Jeter would have more RBIs if he batted 4th or 5th .....don't fault the guy for batting 2nd.
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offensive stats aside...
how much clout do you feel a gold-glove calibur defense carries? and also, how much clout do you feel the typical "team-leader" intangible aspects carry?
both in how the mvp award is awarded and how you feel it should be awarded?
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btw, the yankees are raping the "lets see how this guy does" orioles, 12-0 in the sixth.
and the just-returned matsui is 4-for-4 with some mighty impressive swings thus far.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
offensive stats aside...
how much clout do you feel a gold-glove calibur defense carries? and also, how much clout do you feel the typical "team-leader" intangible aspects carry?
both in how the mvp award is awarded and how you feel it should be awarded?
I think you need to look at the entire picture. I don't argue what Jeter means to his team year in, year out. I won't even argue that Ortiz isn't the #1 pick for MVP this year. The offensive and defensive categories, to me, mean just as much as the intangibles you mentioned. Which is why I'd say that Ortiz deserved the MVP last year - A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his TEAM, how was he the most valuable player in the LEAGUE?
This year, I'd give it to Dye, Morneau, or Jeter. Whichever team goes deeper into the playoffs.
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
btw, the yankees are raping the "lets see how this guy does" orioles, 12-0 in the sixth.
How does that happen when the Orioles are playing in Boston?
(Tampa Bay...pay attention, reax.)
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
btw, the yankees are raping the "lets see how this guy does" orioles, 12-0 in the sixth.
How does that happen when the Orioles are playing in Boston?
(Tampa Bay...pay attention, reax.)
i am shamed 
i give up on the orioles and rays for the season!
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
The offensive and defensive categories, to me, mean just as much as the intangibles you mentioned.
does... that... mean a lot?
i mean, do you have a guesstimate statistical breakdown? (30% for offensive skills, 10% for defense, 60% for swimsuit, etc...)
Quote:
Joe Mama said:
Which is why I'd say that Ortiz deserved the MVP last year - A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his TEAM, how was he the most valuable player in the LEAGUE?
i almost always think jeter earns it, but arod clearly had the better statistical season last year -- which, i feel, is what the award is truly defined as.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
Quote:
Joe Mama said:
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
btw, the yankees are raping the "lets see how this guy does" orioles, 12-0 in the sixth.
How does that happen when the Orioles are playing in Boston?
(Tampa Bay...pay attention, reax.)
i am shamed
i give up on the orioles and rays for the season!
You fair-weather fan. Don't give up on them! Be a man! Follow them to the bitter end!!!
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock
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Godzilla returns to Big Apple
yankees.comGodzilla is back.
Four months and one day after fracturing his left wrist, Yankees slugger Hideki Matsui was listed as the Yankees' designated hitter and No. 8 hitter for Tuesday's game.
And while the Yankees have built a record that's 30 games over .500 without him, they were sure happy to see him in uniform and preparing for the Devil Rays, not just drills.
"I'm happy he's back; it'll make us deeper," Yankees manager Joe Torre said. "No question, you can never have too much talent."
Matsui fractured his wrist on May 11, diving for a line drive hit by Boston's Mark Loretta. The injury snapped his 1,768 consecutive games played streak that began in Yomiuri in Matsui's native Japan and covered four seasons with the Yankees.
Now Matsui is starting from square one. Asked if he thought he would be nervous, Matsui said he wasn't sure. Even he said he's curious to see how he's going to do.
"I'm very excited," Matsui said through an interpreter. "I've been preparing for four months for this day so I think I'm ready. ... I was really waiting for that moment [to put on the uniform]. So I'm just really happy."
Matsui went 3-for-11 (.273) with one double, one RBI, one run scored, six walks and two strikeouts in four rehab starts with Double-A Trenton. Matsui was hitting .261 with five homers and 19 RBIs in 32 games before suffering the injury.
The 32-year-old Matsui had never experienced a major injury before in his career so it's still unknown how he'll bounce back. It was unknown if Matsui was even going to be able to return at all this season.
"You can never judge because he's never gone through anything like this before," Torre said. "But you know one thing, if discipline had anything to do with it, he had a heck of chance. I started believing for a while that he was going to be back in August just hearing how he was talking about it."
Matsui underwent surgery 12 hours after sustaining the injury and immediately went to work rehabbing it. He apologized to his teammates for not being able to help the team.
"I felt like -- as a starter -- starters have a responsibility," Matsui said. "Obviously, it wasn't what I caused; it was an accident. But as a starter, the team depends on you to be out there. The fact [was] that I wasn't going to be able to be [a] strength [for] the team; I felt bad."
Matsui first proclaimed that his goal would be to come back some time this season. He later targeted a Sept. 1 return date, but some soreness in the wrist pushed batting practice up a bit.
He said doesn't feel any pain when swinging, but ices his wrist for precautionary reasons.
Matsui was vigilant about his rehabbing. He would run on the Yankees outfield among the sprinklers after games and even during rain, when the throng of Japanese media, along with everyone else, had retreated inside.
He did anything he could -- having other people catch for him while he threw with his right hand -- and just practicing his swing with a miniature bat about a month ago.
"I wasn't really paying attention to coming back this season or next season," Matsui said. "I was just focused on making sure this injury is healed and that's really what preoccupied my mind. I'm just really happy to come back as early [as I am] this season."
Now the question will be where Matsui fits into what is becoming a crowded Yankees outfield. With Gary Sheffield possibly returning later this week and Melky Cabrera having done a solid job in his stead, the Yankees don't yet have a timetable of when Matsui will be able to reclaim his spot in left field.
Matsui said he feels he is ready to play the field and Torre said he wants to talk more with general manager Brian Cashman before making a decision to put Matsui in the outfield. But he did say he wouldn't be afraid to do so if he felt Matsui was healthy enough.
As far as Matsui's contribution at the plate, Torre had more answers for that.
"I don't think it's going to take him very long to get his stroke back," Torre said. "It's just a matter of we'll see when he's ready to hit in the middle [of the lineup]."
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jeter, btw, had 4 at bats -- 3 walks and 1 hit-by-pitch.
thus, despite getting an rbi and 3 runs, tonights game technically does not count against his 20-game hitting streak. its as if the game never happened, and the streak can continue in the next game.
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magic number is 9....Yanks win 12 - 4.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
offensive stats aside...
how much clout do you feel a gold-glove calibur defense carries? and also, how much clout do you feel the typical "team-leader" intangible aspects carry?
both in how the mvp award is awarded and how you feel it should be awarded?
Gold glove caliber defense certainly carries some weight. Not as much weight as offense, but definitely some weight, and especially so if it comes at a key defensive position(the middle spots: catcher, second, short, centerfield). If you want a statistical perspective, through the win share system, the average player derives around 15-20% of his overall value through defense(the number is slightly lower among the elite players). Now, if we're talking about Jeter, there is some debate on just whether or not he really is gold-glover caliber, but it seems apparent to me that Jeter has improved greatly over the years, and, this year, has provided more value with his glove than most(perhaps all) of the sluggers who are offensively superior.
Intangibles...are difficult to define. "Leadership", especially, is a quality that, to be used attributively, relies almost exclusively on word of mouth, and on faith. If enough people tell you its true, you'll believe it, even if you never see any evidence of it firsthand(and, sometimes, even if you instead see evidence to the contrary).
I believe that such qualities have an impact on the game, but a minimal one. Jason Giambi, or Alex Rodriguez, or Gary Sheffield, or whoever...you can't convince me that they would perform much differently if Derek Jeter was a jerk instead of a super nice guy, or if he was ugly instead of handsome, or if he was quiet and reserved instead of outgoing and charming. They're professionals. They're paid millions of dollars to perform tasks that they are astonishingly skilled at, and have practiced and perfected through years and years of repetition. Any significant effect Jeter has on them comes through his own skills, not leadership.
Many of the great teams in history had rosters filled with boisterous, ego-centric, assholes who despised one another and were anything but leaders. The '86 Mets are a recent, notorious example.
Now, if you want to have the "team leader" award, the MVL, that's fine. To be a player means you field and/or hit, though, and, logically, intangibles don't do much there.
Quote:
Joe Mama said:
The offensive and defensive categories, to me, mean just as much as the intangibles you mentioned. Which is why I'd say that Ortiz deserved the MVP last year - A-Rod wasn't even the most valuable player on his TEAM, how was he the most valuable player in the LEAGUE?
If you think Jeter was more valuable than A-Rod last year, then you must think the intangibles mean a lot more than offensive and defensive categories, because A-Rod was superior to Jeter in virtually every stastical category last year. Better batting average, more doubles, homers, walks, RBI, runs, steals, a higher on base percentage, slugging percentage, vastly superior EqA, VORP, win shares...he even hit better with runners in scoring position, or in "close and late" situations, which is supposed to be Jeter's bread and butter.
Basically, to say that Jeter had the better year is to say stats mean next to nothing.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Ani...you can't totally discount the leadership angle. Yes, sheff, giambino and matsui are paid to perform whether Jeter is a nice guy or not....but....even sheff last year said he's inspired by Jeter. He plays hurt all the time. A reporter had asked sheff if he would miss a game cause of some injury....and he said, "how can I? when I look at the locker next to me and see Jeter hurting more than me suiting up." "He's a warrior."
that's leadership.
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Quote:
PJP said:
Ani...you can't totally discount the leadership angle. Yes, sheff, giambino and matsui are paid to perform whether Jeter is a nice guy or not....but....even sheff last year said he's inspired by Jeter. He plays hurt all the time. A reporter had asked sheff if he would miss a game cause of some injury....and he said, "how can I? when I look at the locker next to me and see Jeter hurting more than me suiting up." "He's a warrior."
that's leadership.
I don't totally discount it, but at the end of the day, Derek Jeter isn't doing it for Gary Sheffield. He's not his mom, or even his hitting coach. Infact, given what we've all heard about Sheffield, I doubt they're even friends(though I'm sure Gary respects Derek).
You can find all kinds of similar stories and quotes from all kinds of players, coaches, fans, reporters, etc. Some are totally genuine, some are embellished, some are simply fabricated. Most actually mean a lot less than they might seem to. Afterall, players play hurt. A lot. Playing professional baseball at its highest level requires a great deal of skill, a great deal of motivation, and engenders an even greater deal of compensation($$$). Therefore, logically, one can assume that those who play it are unlikely to be drastically swayed, positively or negatively, by the subtle actions of those around them.
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Quote:
PJP said:
Ani...you can't totally discount the leadership angle. Yes, sheff, giambino and matsui are paid to perform whether Jeter is a nice guy or not....but....even sheff last year said he's inspired by Jeter. He plays hurt all the time. A reporter had asked sheff if he would miss a game cause of some injury....and he said, "how can I? when I look at the locker next to me and see Jeter hurting more than me suiting up." "He's a warrior."
that's leadership.
i agree.
granted, its nearly impossible to quantify, i think it has more value than you let on.
whether its the donnie baseball work ethic, curt schilling's bloody sock, the gippers... uh... gipping, rudy's solitary play, or any other mythical figure, inspiration is ginormous.
many coaches, aside from their actual play-making decisions, are heralded as amazing and inspiring leaders.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Quote:
PJP said:
Ani...you can't totally discount the leadership angle. Yes, sheff, giambino and matsui are paid to perform whether Jeter is a nice guy or not....but....even sheff last year said he's inspired by Jeter. He plays hurt all the time. A reporter had asked sheff if he would miss a game cause of some injury....and he said, "how can I? when I look at the locker next to me and see Jeter hurting more than me suiting up." "He's a warrior."
that's leadership.
I don't totally discount it, but at the end of the day, Derek Jeter isn't doing it for Gary Sheffield. He's not his mom, or even his hitting coach. Infact, given what we've all heard about Sheffield, I doubt they're even friends(though I'm sure Gary respects Derek).
You can find all kinds of similar stories and quotes from all kinds of players, coaches, fans, reporters, etc. Some are totally genuine, some are embellished, some are simply fabricated. Most actually mean a lot less than they might seem to. Afterall, players play hurt. A lot. Playing professional baseball at its highest level requires a great deal of skill, a great deal of motivation, and engenders an even greater deal of compensation($$$). Therefore, logically, one can assume that those who play it are unlikely to be drastically swayed, positively or negatively, by the subtle actions of those around them.
I respectfully disagree....I played competitive sports my whole life and there were times I was one of the best guys on the team and knew I had to lead by example....and there were times where I played with some people way better than me that pushed me harder and made me want to practice harder and play better....plus there was always a friendly competition amongst teammates that would make us always push each other.
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I'll take Jeter over ARod for the simple fact that he inspires his teammates to be winners, and winners who get rings. ARod has shown his personal philosophy is to look out for #1. His complaining in the past while on the Rangers on when he didn't win the MVP award had to grate on his teammates as well. I know it did in Seattle when Juan Gonzalez won the award adn the difference was two votes. And two Seattle reporters didn't vote for him.
So when your best player is looking out for himself, even one who statistically shows he's one of the best, how does that carryover to the rest of the team? By the same token, if one of your best players shows to be putting out 110% every day, how does that affect the team?
"You kind of get tired giving the other team credit. At some point you've got to look in the mirror and say 'I sucked.'"
Alex Rodriguez, after the NY Yankees were eliminated from the 2006 ALDS by the Detroit Tigers.
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
whether its the donnie baseball work ethic, curt schilling's bloody sock, the gippers... uh... gipping, rudy's solitary play, or any other mythical figure, inspiration is ginormous.
Gipp's famous quote, while super nifty sounding, is apocryphal, so really, the only inspiring thing any of us know he actually did was...well, die.
The bloody sock...Schilling won that game(a close game) himself, through his tangible ability. If he doesn't throw a great game, Boston loses the series, and he goes home, bloody sock and all. Now, I know everyone likes to say that it inspired the team to win game 7 and then sweep the Cardinals(which might even be true), but how many times has a terrific, amazing performance ostensibly worthy of inspiring others...not?
For example, last year's NLDS. John Smoltz, with a shoulder so stiff he could barely raise his arm above his head, throws seven innings of one run baseball, beating Roger Clemens. Sure, there was no blood, but that sounds pretty inspirational to me. It was the only game the Braves won.
So, I guess, it would seem inspiration is only as good as the people you're inspiring.
Quote:
PJP said:
I respectfully disagree....I played competitive sports my whole life and there were times I was one of the best guys on the team and knew I had to lead by example....and there were times where I played with some people way better than me that pushed me harder and made me want to practice harder and play better....plus there was always a friendly competition amongst teammates that would make us always push each other.
With respect, I think your sports experience is a bit different than that of a professional athlete the caliber of Jeter, A-Rod, etc.
I played high school basketball, but the kinds of personalities, motivations, abilities in the NBA are, obviously, different.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
how many times has a terrific, amazing performance ostensibly worthy of inspiring others...not?
an inspired team, or a team playing better, does not necessarily equal a championship team or the one with the best record.
just as arod's undeniably amazing offensive performance couldn't lift the rangers out of the basement, samples like mattingly's amazing inspiration shouldn't be ignored because of record.
i believe you made the argument that arod was able to help the team win (theoretically) 30 games that they would't have won without him, because of his numbers and talent. i'd theorize that players like mattingly and jeter help to inspire X amount of wins in the same fashion.
as said, many coaches are legendary because of their leadership skills -- often valued above any play making.
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Then how does one know who's a leader and who's not? Who's inspirational, and who isn't? Afterall, isn't the whole argument against A-Rod that he hasn't "inspired" his teammates to a World Series? If winning the championship or having the best record isn't required, what gives?
To draw a parallel to PJP's earlier anecdote about Jeter playing through injuries, Alex Rodriguez played in all 486 games during his time as a Ranger(finishing at nearly 600 overall). Didn't miss one. Surely, during that time, he had to endure many injuries. How is it leadership for Jeter, but "looking out for #1" for A-Rod?
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Quote:
Animalman said:
Who's inspirational, and who isn't? Afterall, isn't the whole argument against A-Rod that he hasn't "inspired" his teammates to a World Series? If winning the championship or having the best record isn't required, what gives?
To draw a parallel to PJP's earlier anecdote about Jeter playing through injuries, Alex Rodriguez played in all 486 games during his time as a Ranger(finishing at nearly 600 overall). Didn't miss one. Surely, during that time, he had to endure many injuries. How is it leadership for Jeter, but "looking out for #1" for A-Rod?
and yet, even with all this debate, through a flurry of statistical differences, its been clearly noted by fans and players, alike, that of the two, jeter is hands-down the more inspiring, leader type.
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Animalman said:
Then how does one know who's a leader and who's not?
probably best seen through the eyes of other players and the coach. in the case of the yankees, as quoted by peejus, that is annually jeter -- formerly, donnie. with the bosox, its been veritek. i'd wager many teams could claim their own.
again, the argument for how to quantify such stock is certainly difficult.
but it can't be all that much more challenging than determining if 50 homers has greater value than a 340 batting average (etc)
at the very least, it should be a factor in the award, particularly with a title named on "value"
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
and yet, even with all this debate, through a flurry of statistical differences, its been clearly noted by fans and players, alike, that of the two, jeter is hands-down the more inspiring, leader type.
But, don't you see the double-standard?
If Jeter plays through injuries, he's inspiring. If A-Rod does it, he's padding his stats. If Jeter compliments his team in the press, he's a leader, if A-Rod does it, he's trying too hard to be PC.
I won't argue that Jeter is a nicer guy, a more selfless guy. I just don't see how A-Rod's vastly superior career production can be declared moot against Jeter's unquantifiable, unprovable, intangible qualities. It can't be measured, it can't be analyzed, it certainly can't be compared, and it has no required result. Without yarn-weaving sportswriters and self-aggrandizing former ballplayers, I wonder if any of these ideas would be given any credence at all.
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again, the argument for how to quantify such stock is certainly difficult.
but it can't be all that much more challenging than determining if 50 homers has greater value than a 340 batting average (etc)
50 homers and a 340 batting average are only large parts of the whole. You don't compare them, you compare the whole. So no, it's not challenging at all.
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at the very least, it should be a factor in the award, particularly with a title named on "value"
Unquantifiable, unprovable value.
Of course, I'm sure Red Sox fans feel just as strongly about Ortiz's leadership and intangibles as Yankees do Jeter's. Twins fans are hardly going to concede that Joe Mauer does less for his team on and off the field as a catcher than Jeter does as a shortstop, even if he is young. Most Ranger fans wouldn't take Jeter over Michael Young and his intangibles for all the Toby Keith CD's you could find.
Just about every fan will agree his or her player is the best leader, and that you have to watch them every day to see it. And there can be no right or wrong answer(unless you pick A-ROd, of course), because there's no argument to be had. No proof. No evidence. Which is OK, but if you're going to have an award based on value, it shouldn't be a deciding factor.
Now, if you want to have the "leader award", like I mentioned earlier, great. I'm fine with that.
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I could live with Joe Mauer or Dye getting the awars over Jeter. I personally can't see ever giving the award to a DH again. It's not MVP of the Red Sux, it's MVP of the entire League which Ortiz is clearly not. Unless we are talking about eating pizzas.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
I just don't see how A-Rod's vastly superior career production can be declared moot against Jeter's unquantifiable, unprovable, intangible qualities.
i've never argued to remove stats and base the award on perception. no one asks that jeter's intangibles don't discredit arod's stats, at all.
but i can't believe you're ready to ask the reverse.
do you honestly not feel there's a variance, at all? you see no non-numerical weight? does an intangible mean something doesn't exist?
there's a difference between batting with 2 outs in the 8th and no outs in the 3rd, but your stats don't reflect that. picking up slack when other players on your team are injured
doesn't come across any differently on the back of your baseball card.
stats never have told the whole story, and it doesn't make sense to expect them to.
Quote:
Animalman said:
50 homers and a 340 batting average are only large parts of the whole. You don't compare them, you compare the whole. So no, it's not challenging at all.
exactly. i would add "leadership qualities" to the comparitive whole.
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Animalman said:
I'm sure Red Sox fans feel just as strongly about Ortiz's leadership and intangibles as Yankees do Jeter's.
and yet they don't. just ask joe.
...assuming he's a fan today.
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Animalman said:
Just about every fan will agree his or her player is the best leader, and that you have to watch them every day to see it
well, i don't feel this should be based on fan perception. but i do feel there should be great value placed on the opinion of other players and coaches.
they know the game. they have pretty equal distribution over what and who they see. they also have countless experts and scouting reports giving as much statistical basis to the intangibles as possible.
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Quote:
PJP said:
Unless we are talking about eating pizzas.
10, nightly!
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Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
i've never argued to remove stats and base the award on perception. no one asks that jeter's intangibles don't discredit arod's stats, at all.
Joe's argument for Ortiz being the MVP last year was that A-Rod couldn't be because he wasn't the MVP of his own team, thanks to Jeter and his intangibles.
You've said in this thread that you'd pick Jeter for team MVP every year, including last year, based on those intangibles.
Statistically, there was a very, very large difference between A-Rod and Jeter last year. My stance is not, nor has it ever been, that Jeter's intangibles(or anyone elses') count for nothing. It is merely that they cannot reasonably, logically remove that difference and give Jeter the edge. To suggest otherwise is to suggest that stats mean basically zip; that they have very little "value".
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there's a difference between batting with 2 outs in the 8th and no outs in the 3rd, but your stats don't reflect that. picking up slack when other players on your team are injured doesn't come across any differently on the back of your baseball card.
The idea of the "clutch hitter" is something that is, for the most part, a fabrication perpetuated by those that wish to lionize their favorite players. That isn't to say that clutch performances don't exist, just that there isn't a player who performs significantly better in clutch situations every year. The same is true for the idea of the "choker". This has been the subject of numerous sabremetric publications. Baseball Prospectus has devoted quite a bit of time to it. Wikipedia mentions the study done by Dick Cramer, the seminal work on the matter, in my opinion. Incidentally, and I just noticed this, the wikipedia entry mentions Jeter and A-Rod, though part of the argument it offers is kinda poorly stated.
Even if such an exclusive ability did exist, value is based on what is done, not when. If, hypothetically, player one goes 1-4 and hits a solo homerun in the 3rd inning, tyng a game, and then player two goes 1-4 and hits a solo homerun in the 9th, winning it, they've both contributed the same value: four bases. Without player one's contribution, player two's contribution wouldn't have resulted in a win, and vice versa.
To take this concept further, if, in a season, player one hits 50 homeruns, and player two hits 40, both with identical batting average, walks, RBI, etc, with the caveat that player one's homeruns all came in the 3rd inning, and player two's homeruns all came in the 9th, player one has still provided more value, even if his homeruns weren't as dramatic or exciting.
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stats never have told the whole story, and it doesn't make sense to expect them to.
Stats, like everything, have to be looked in the right context. One of the big reasons I think the stat community is often discredited is that there are many stats that have incorrectly become accepted a part of the baseball paradigm.
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exactly. i would add "leadership qualities" to the comparitive whole.
But you can't compare leadership. That's the point.
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well, i don't feel this should be based on fan perception. but i do feel there should be great value placed on the opinion of other players and coaches.
To a certain extent, I agree, but I think the player's interpretation of the game changes from generation to generation. At the beginning Babe Ruth's batting career, a lot of players looked down on him because of his work ethic, his poor baserunning, his long swing that produced comparatively high strikeout totals, and because he did not utilize many of the standard techniques of the day, like the slap hit, and the bunt. Tris Speaker and Nap Lajoie claimed that Ruth was in a class below Ty Cobb(Cobb himself always said that Ruth "ruined baseball") for this reason, and they clearly weren't alone, as Cobb, as hated a person as he was, received more votes than Ruth for the first Hall of Fame class.
Today, pretty much everyone, fan, player or otherwise, agrees that Ruth was superior.
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Quote:
Animalman said:
You've said in this thread that you'd pick Jeter for team MVP every year, including last year, based on those intangibles
nossir. i said:
Quote:
Rob Kamphausen said:
i almost always think jeter earns it, but arod clearly had the better statistical season last year -- which, i feel, is what the award is truly defined as.
i think intangibles have a lot of weight, but arod's numbers were by far and away superior to any weight jeter's leadership offered.
as said, i feel those aspects are all part of a whole, and only argue that they should not be ignored or dismissed -- not that they should outrank mathematics.
Quote:
Animalman said:
Stats, like everything, have to be looked in the right context. One of the big reasons I think the stat community is often discredited is that there are many stats that have incorrectly become accepted a part of the baseball paradigm.
agreed.
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Animalman said:
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exactly. i would add "leadership qualities" to the comparitive whole.
But you can't compare leadership. That's the point.
and thats where i disagree.
the whole award is based on comparisons. this season (to simplify it) it will be ortiz's 50+ homers versus jeter's 350 average. you then have to factor in rbis, stolen bases, on base percentage, and a myriad of other statistics. mathematically, sometimes jeter will come out ahead, sometimes ortiz will.
but there's no precise formula to calculate how many doubles equal an rbi or how many base hits equal a home run. are more homeruns more valuable than more basehits? if there's no explosive, runaway winner, the decision is already based on things that can not directly be compared, and rather on opinion and interpretation of facts and the game.
i'd simply advocate the addition of one more "incomparable" aspect.
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oh, and the yanks are up 6-4 in the seventh. arod has a homer, cano has a homer, and jeter has continued his hitting streak.
red sox are losing in the 8th
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Magic number is 7 Yanks win 8-4.
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