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Flameswordsman said:
Nice to know. Still got my point across though



Yes, the point being that you were contradicting yourself.

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When Hal was Spectre, nobody remembered meeting him after he left. So, if Bats forgave him, he wouldn't have remembered the actions that led to that afterwards...



Elaborate



Since you weren't even nice enough to ask, I'll just repeat the same thing I said in caps, hoping this time you read it with more attention: WHEN HAL WAS SPECTRE, NOBODY REMEMBERED MEETING HIM AFTER HE LEFT.

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That is not called "progression", its called "forced", especially how DC has been portraying Batman as even more paranoid over the last few years



Again, it may be hack writing (Rebirth certainly is), but it's not really forced if it did take place over the course of FOUR separate meetings. That's progression any way you look at it.

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Rebirth may have retconned away anything bad that Hal did, but he still punched Batman to the ground. If anything, that worked against their relationship, not for it



Yeah, and the whole "I didn't really do it, it was a space parasite and now I'll help you defeat it" thing counted for nothing? Like everyone else, I don't like the space parasite thing, but realistically, Bats opinion of Hal's morality should have bettered in some level after learning that, even if their personal interaction still sucked.

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You may be able to buy it, but I can't, nor ever will be able to accept that he just forgives the guy who participated in his mind-wipe, especially considering how DC have been playing up his paranoia with Brother Eye, and how he was monumentally pissed about the mind-wipe



Again, there is progression within Infinite Crisis and the events preceding it showing the consequences of Bats' paranoia not just to the reader but to himself. The issue where he contacts Nightwing and has a tender moment asking him to round up other heroes, is him realizing he can't work alone after all. He needs so much help bringing down Brother Eye that he even calls guys like Ollie and Hal to help him do it: that's a great step for him. This is what IC is supposed to do, leave the dark period behind and make everyone friends again (for better or for worse).

This is simple stuff here buddy, it's not explicit but it's laying in plain view. It's not like this is Watchmen. I can't believe you didn't get any of it.

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Also a monumental coinsedence seen as the Superboy rights were being contested and now all DC has to do is revive him under a new name and they have full reign over his comics interpretation



Geek paranoia, big destroyah.

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Comic Book Resources said:

Finally, as readers of today’s "Infinite Crisis" #6 can attest, DC has suddenly found itself short a character named Superboy. I'm certainly not suggesting that this necessarily has anything to do with the copyright infringement case, but please note that if Conner Kent were to return later, sans any Superboy connection (as in, a brand new name), then DC will have successfully avoided the copyright issue with Superboy. In addition, here’s an even trickier situation – DC currently still owns a trademark on Superboy, so no one can publish a comic using the name Superboy, even if they owned the copyright to the character! Therefore, DC can simply rename Conner Kent something else until the Siegel’s copyright runs out, at which point, they can return Conner (or whatever other character is introduced between now and 2023) to the name Superboy. In addition, as Time Warner has been quite willing to settle the case (in fact, one of their claims in the past involves their insistence that the Siegels already did settle, but decided to break the settlement agreement and therefore, the Siegels should be bound by the terms of the original settlement), this certainly does not hurt Time Warner’s negotiation position. In any event, it will be interesting to see what path this case takes in the future, as it could have a real impact on the comics we read and the TV shows that we watch.





So, uh, ONE article convinced you this was absolute truth? Huh, ok...

If this was really the case, then DC would have simply renamed him. That's what usually happens with quick fixes: you can tell it was improvised because it doesn't fit the story. This does fit the story, as I've said before: the Superboy subplot begins in IC #1 (even before that if you look at Teen Titans) and finds a resolution here. This didn't come out of nowhere.

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The 1st Teen Titans issue OYL has Robin already trying to re-clone Superboy. While im sure it won't happen immediately, he WILL be back in the next couple of years.



1. "Trying". You said he's already back.
2. He's not using Superboy's blood, he's mixing Superman's blood with Luthor's. If he does succeed in creating a clone, it would be nothing like Superboy; in fact, comic book logic tells us that since Superboy was more like Superman, this clone should be more like Luthor, like an evil twin of the dead Superboy. With a superpowered Luthor in his hands, Robin would have to accept that what he was doing was wrong, and finally come to terms with Conner's death. I think this character wouldn't last more than one story arc (or even one issue): he would die in the end, or turn into a bizarro and fall apart.
3. "Trying".
4. In any case, I believe the subplot here won't be the return of Superboy, it will be Robin coming to terms with his death and realizing it's wrong to try to make him come back from the death.

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Yeah, 'spose that would make sense, I never got 'round to reading the final issues in the trade because of the awful 4 parter about him going rogue

I still think it has a connection to the law-suit, it's just too convenient that DC would kill him off just when his rights are being questioned. I'm already bored with digging up information about the law-suit for this post, so I can't be bothered to see when the law-suit originally started. My basis there would be that DC knew the Seigel's would be contesting the rights [the Seigel's have known since 2004 that they could get them back] and were already prepping him for death to make it seem COIE inspired



Wait, wait, so even if this was planned long ago, it's a genuine part of the story and not a "quick fix" as you suggest, whatever the editorial motivation behind the death may be.

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When was the LOSH cartoon started? There's already fierce speculation that the cartoon is on hold while the law-suit and the rights are finilised. Depends how far along they are and if they believed the new cartoon would be challenged [from what little I know of it, it just started as a spat over Smallville]



I read a plot synopsis they released recently, and it mentioned Superboy prominently. Since the synopsis was probably written recently for a press release, I think it would have avoided mentioning Superboy if they thought it was a point of conflict. I'm not sure if there's a release date yet, but it doesn't seem to be taking more than these things usually do.

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What am I missing here? I've been reading the Superman titles and Teen Titans and he hasn't come back. Are you taking geek speculation for granted again?




"again"?



The lawsuit thing. I see a pattern here. Not everything you read in message boards or see in video games is true.

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He hasn't come back yet, but DC are obviously pushing the idea of his re-cloning.



"Obviously pushing his idea of his recloning". Heh. And you got that from ONE page in Teen Titans? I suggest you look up Didio's DC Nation column about Superboy's death and see how, if anything, DC is pushing for this to become another iconic death like Barry Allen's or Supergirl's.

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I highly doubt it's all a charade, the character has already become a corner stone of Johns' TT, and we both know what he's like as far as perverting characterisation and comic-book death to get what he wants [example: Kal-L's evilness or stupidness in IC to suit his story]



Johns IS capable of doing that, but given the big deal they're making about it I doubt he will. Johns never brings back characters he killed himself or that were killed recently, it's always guys like Jericho or Raven, who've been dead for years, so he brings em back for nostalgia purposes.

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The basis of you're whole arguement is going on what was said at the DC Column. Did you really expect Didio to admit that they were killing him off to avoid the law-suit?!



No, but you're missing a big point here: he wouldn't have made such a big deal about it if he was planning to bring him back right away. Wait, did you say right away or in a couple of years? I feel a little retcon coming now.

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You're going on what you believe is true, and me what I believe. Theres no point argueing this as we are both going on unreputable sources. You: Didio. Me: The convenience of it all



Actually, it's more like Me: Common sense and You: Something you read somewhere.

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How am I blaming Morrison for something that accured outside his run?! im not debating the Mutant de-population here, I've already established that that was a crock of shit. Im debating the folly of Morrison killing off Magneto and thinking it would stick



AGAIN: Morrie didn't bring him back. Marvel brought him back. You're blaming Morrie because Marvel brought Magneto back OUTSIDE Morrie's run, when he had nothing to do with it. Once more, you're reading too much into it (though ironically you bypass simple understatements in IC).

Morrie's run is Morrie's run, and it works on its own regardless of what happens afterwards. This may not be the case with most writers of big franchise books, but it is the case with Morrison. I insist: he's said he doesn't care if they reverse his changes outside his run as long as they don't make HIM do the changes. Since he only thinks inside his run, when he killed Magneto he wasn't expecting him to come back since HE wasn't planning to bring him back. That's all that matters. For those of us who will read Morrie's run and skip the rest, Magneto will stay dead.

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I still refuse to believe that Magneto can use magnetism to amp his strength up to Colossus level, or use the magnetic spectrum to become invisible, or open up dimensional worm-holes for instantaneous transportation. Fuck the explanation behind him also developing healing powers, Marvel have already gone out of control with Magneto and his assorted abilities



Well, you're just being the comic book geek that complains that they changed Wolverine's hairdo in the movie here.

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He's also not the type to become an addict. I can't say I care how Morrie justified it, its just not in Magneto's character to me, just like Luthor becoming a Kryptonite junkie isn't either



I think our problem here is that I'm trying to use logic, while you're trying to use comic book message board logic. Both things don't go together well, you know?