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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I would call wanting to change the world for the better to be, inherently, optimistic...
Okay, and I understand we are starting to argue a bit in a circle here, but many of history's greatest dictators wanted to change the world in ways that they considered to be "for the better." And, as Piggy noted, even George Bush and his neocons believe they are changing the world for the better.
So, does that make any story where someone wants to change the world "for the better" and uses force to do so, optimistic?
Or, to leave the comparison to real world figures, for about forty plus years now, we have read stories about how Victor VonDoom, if only given the chance by that accursed Richards, would have used his powers to, he believes, change the world for the better. Byrne even did a story or two where he indicated that, by some standards, Doom was actually somewhat of a benevolent dictator in the eyes of Latveria.
Are those stories "optimistic"?
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that you think the Authority is optimistic because you happen to agree with their ideas of what constitutes "better".
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I consider it optimistic because they actually use their abilities to improve the world beyond the status quo that the JLA holds steady...
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I consider it optimistic because they actually use their abilities to improve the world beyond the status quo that the JLA holds steady...
The way that W. Bush used his abilities to improve the world?
The road to hell is paved in good intentions. And I could see the Authority using their powers on dictators similarly opening an unforseen can of worms on the world.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that you think the Authority is optimistic because you happen to agree with their ideas of what constitutes "better".
Quote:
Prometheus said:
I consider it optimistic because they actually use their abilities to improve the world beyond the status quo...
I'm going to assume, therefore, that your answer to my quesiton is "yes."
In which case, aren't you adopting something of an "ends justify the means" philosophy?
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
I consider it optimistic because they actually use their abilities to improve the world beyond the status quo that the JLA holds steady...
The way that W. Bush used his abilities to improve the world?
The road to hell is paved in good intentions. And I could see the Authority using their powers on dictators similarly opening an unforseen can of worms on the world.
That's kind of actually what happened to them. Except, it was the US, not a foreign dictator.
Spoilers!
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
I could be wrong, but I get the impression that you think the Authority is optimistic because you happen to agree with their ideas of what constitutes "better".
Quote:
Prometheus said:
I consider it optimistic because they actually use their abilities to improve the world beyond the status quo...
I'm going to assume, therefore, that your answer to my quesiton is "yes."
In which case, aren't you adopting something of an "ends justify the means" philosophy?
Ummm...I'd really love to be following your train of thought here. But, I'm not. It's entertainment. It's a comic book. It told stories I enjoyed reading. It had a very optimistic heart. What part are you not getting here?
Was it different? Yes. Was it fun? Fuck yeah. Were they right? ...well...tough to say. Warren Ellis showed us how they would change the world. while Mark Millar showed us the consequences aren't always as glorious as you would imagine. Especially upsetting the global power balance.
So, where are you going with all of this?
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G-man just loves to argue. But...so do the rest of us, so I can't point any fingers.
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G-man has a point here, following from what I said. The people applauding the Authority were those, it seems to me, who abhor the US invasion of Iraq.
Do the ends justify the means? Once I would have said yes. Hell, I did say yes. Now I say no. (Primarily though because we have't got the ends.)
Comic book writers don't want Superman etc. to change the planet for two reasons: first, it isn't reflected in reality and Superman's appeal works from the perspective of a contemporary environment (which is why Lex was never going to stay President). Second, its very very political and polarising to have Superman attack a regime because he disagrees with its internal domestic policies. So instead, writers have Superman ignore the screams of the tortured and raped across the world. Bit disturbing when you think of it like that.
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Thanks, Dave.
In Pro's possible defense, however, its possible that he feels this way because, after all, its a work of fiction, not real life.
Just as the Punisher and Batman are idealized concepts of vigilantism, that one can enjoy without actually wanting to see it practiced in real life, I suppose one can enjoy the Authority as an idealized fictionalized version of forced utopia.
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That's exactly what I'm saying. Seriously. I compare The Authority's reign of change to, say, Superman's lack of involvement. Not to the real world. The Authority allow me to see what it would be like if the JLA went in and truly attempted to change the infrastructure of the planet as we know it...
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I find the Authority morally acceptable compared to the JLA. The Authority at least was motivated by a desire for a finer world. The JLA, aside from intervening in in imaginary countries, are too busy "preserving the status quo" as Hawksmoor put it, which is not a very nice status quo.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
That's exactly what I'm saying. Seriously. I compare The Authority's reign of change to, say, Superman's lack of involvement. Not to the real world. The Authority allow me to see what it would be like if the JLA went in and truly attempted to change the infrastructure of the planet as we know it...
This is exactly why the JLA is an exact replica of the UN: It has its upside as well as its faults. Like the UN, the JLA, violates the sovereignty of other countries when it feels the need to do so. However, because the UN is so comprised of itself, it can never reach a conclusion on what it thinks needs to be done. I take some comfort out of that even though I do retain fear of such a disgusting organization and the fact that it actually exists.
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Fair enough. However, I think the response from Superman has been and would be that he has no right to force his personal opinion of what is or isn't a "good" change upon the people of earth.
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Moral relativism? That doesn't sound like anything Superman would ascribe to.
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In what way is he practicing moral relativism if he does not want to force his beliefs on the world?
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Moral relativism is Superman's not having a standard of what is "good" and thinking morality is just based on personal opinion. I never said anything about forcing beliefs on others.
That said, do you really think Superman would turn a blind eye to the genocide in Darfur, or in Rwanda during the 1990s?
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Moral relativism is Superman's not having a standard of what is "good" and thinking morality is just based on personal opinion. I never said anything about forcing beliefs on others.
And I never said Superman didn't have a standard of what is good. What I said was that Superman has traditionally stated that he would not use his powers to impose his standard on other people or other nations.
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So your opinion is that Superman would have done nothing about the genocide in Darfur or Rwanda? That's pretty clear-cut murder.
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But its clear cut murder in a sovereign nation. Does Superman intervene there and not, say, Saddam-era Iraq? And should he have intervened to end the killing fields in, say, Cambodia and Vietnam?
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Well, in a sense Superman DID invade Iraq and capture Saddam Hussein... when he invaded "Qurac" and arrested Saddam-look-alike "Marlo Hurrambi," back in the early 1990s.
That example shows that mass murder trumps sovereignty in Superman's view.
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Arrested under the authority of whom? He's not gonna take him to the tower and America sure as hell isn't gonna take him because of an arrest made by a vigilante.
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Well, that's what happened. Argue with DC, not me. It was a good story and reminded me a bit of the one Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster did during World War II, in which Superman invaded first Germany and then Japan, apprehending Hitler and Hirohito and ending World War II.
My favorite version of Superman by far is the early vigilante Superman, who regularly broke laws to achieve justice for the average Joe. Occasionally that version makes an appearance once in a while.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
Well, in a sense Superman DID invade Iraq and capture Saddam Hussein... when he invaded "Qurac" and arrested Saddam-look-alike "Marlo Hurrambi," back in the early 1990s.
I must confess I don't remember that story, or how it ended.
Quote:
The Time Trust said:
It was a good story and reminded me a bit of the one Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster did during World War II, in which Superman invaded first Germany and then Japan, apprehending Hitler and Hirohito and ending World War II.
Again, I don't remember that story. I do remember a strip they did for "Look" magazine, that was not canonical, but more of an editorial cartoon:
In 1943, Look Magazine ran a two-page sequence written by Jerry Siegel and drawn by Joe Shuster entitled "What If Superman Ended the War?" In that sequence, Superman had tired of the destruction of war and decided to bring it to an abrupt end. He flew to Berlin and captured Adolph Hitler, then went to Moscow to capture Joseph Stalin. Leaping high above the mountaintops, Superman flew the pair to Geneva Switzerland, to a court before the League of Nations where the two dictators were placed on trial for war crimes against their own people. Interestingly, this was published before Roosevelt and Churchill invited Stalin to be one of the allies, and Russia joined in the battle against Germany. Still, it showed the sentiment toward Russia during the 1940's, and that even then the world opinion of 1943 considered the Russian people to be oppressed
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G-man- Moral relativism is the reason Tony Blair specifically and the White House now uses for the invasion of Iraq. "Saddam is an evil genocidal murderer, he must be punished." Sovereignty is no bar to justice (in the absence of WMDs). Genocide itself was one of the reasons the UN was formed - to prevent another Holocaust (Clinton acknowledged everyone, including the US, failed in Rwanda). So if the leaderships of governments as at 1945 thinks that genocide is intolerable, I think you have a de minimus consensus on the moral relativism of genocide (setting aside common domestic laws relating to murder, torture, rape, etc).
Unless you're Dr Manhattan and so totally removed from emotion as to be schizoid, if you had super-powers which gave you a nigh invulernable advantage over ordinary murderers, rapists, and perpetuators of genocide, its hard to see how you could stand back and do nothing, sovereignty or not. Even Spider-man, as I alluded before, would have to be tempted to learn sharp-shooting assassinate Kim Il Jong in the hope of improving the lot of millions of North Koreans, simply because he has a better chance of success than most assasins. (The Punisher and Wolverine, fortified by no compuction about killing, would have deposed the North Korean government by now.)
So what the Authority did makes sense to me - ending the war in Chechnya, intervening in Timor L'Este, and forcing the PLA out of Tibet - and what the JLA do (nothing) is morally bankrupt at best.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
G-man- Moral relativism is the reason Tony Blair specifically and the White House now uses for the invasion of Iraq. "Saddam is an evil genocidal murderer, he must be punished."
Can you link me to a source where it says either of them ever said such a thing (although, I'm more concerned that Bush said it than Blair).
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Oooh, a challenge! Mr Blair: Quote:
On July 17, 2003, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair said in an address to the US congress, that history would forgive the United States and United Kingdom, even if they were wrong about weapons of mass destruction.
You'll have to look up the text - can't be arsed. The reason history would be forgiving is because Saddam was evil.
Mr Bush:
Quote:
Despite the intelligence lapse, Bush stood by his decision to invade Iraq stating:
"But what wasn't wrong was Saddam Hussein had invaded a country, he had used weapons of mass destruction, he had the capability of making weapons of mass destruction, he was firing at our pilots. He was a state sponsor of terror. Removing Saddam Hussein was the right thing for world peace and the security of our country."
Citation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction
So, to be fair, not quite, "he's evil!" but instead "he sponsors terror!",.
As I've said, I personally have no issue with intervening in sovereign state's internal politics on the grounds of moral relativism - what recently happened in Darfur is abominable. I guess the issue I have is what to do afterwards. (The Authority gave East Timor and Indonesia the reformed evil genius Dr Krigstein, and the US gave Iraq a lot of cash which has gone missing.)
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Well, first, I don't care how history's going to interpret it.
And second, terrorism has been a detriment to American society. Going after somone who helps sponsor it, FOR THAT REASON no less, is easily identifiable as a tactic that serves the interests of Americans and is not being executed solely for the sake of altruism. Whether or not you agree such a goal could be reached the way we're going about combatting a terrorist sponsor is irrelevent in the face of our intent. "Our own country" is the most important segment of Bush's quote.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
So what the Authority did makes sense to me - ending the war in Chechnya, intervening in Timor L'Este, and forcing the PLA out of Tibet - and what the JLA do (nothing) is morally bankrupt at best.
Okay, but what if the Authority (or the JLA) acted in ways not so popular with liberals, but still designed (in some people's minds) to end bloodshed and promote (some people's ideas of) justice: intervening in the Cambodian killing fields, forcing the PLO out of disputed territories, overthrowing Castro, etc.
Would that be okay too?
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That's a bit of a paradox to the conservative mindset. But that's still a good question.
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But that's just the thing. I'm saying that having Superman intervene in world affairs is only appealing to the reader as long as that intervention is in manner or form consistent with the political biases or views of the reader in question.
You think Superman should intervene in areas that you, given your political beliefs, think are appropriate. Someone else would have different views and, as a result, different opnions of where he should intervene.
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I don't even think the JLA should exist let alone be given any authority to do anything ("for") anyone else. The "heroes" of the DCU have a real problem understanding what the words "mandate" (or lack thereof) and "sovereignty" mean.
The only reason I'd ever appreciate the presence of the JLA as a book is for political satire and its allegory to the UN. However, Batman should never ever be apart of it.
In any case, that's an excellent point.
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G-man - Maybe I'm missing the point, but are left wingers in the US really in favour of Castro's regime? Or Pol Pot's genocide?
Palestine is a different matter, because all sides there behave abominably. But throw out Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, and the Israeli army and have Superman/Green Lantern/the Flash run the place as a protectorate? Shit yes. Give me a Green Lantern ring and all of those bastards will be disarmed and interbreeding by sunset.
The thing the Authority is honest about, at least for Indonesia, is that they left the place in a "mess". Always have a highly detailed reconstruction plan when you remove a country's leadership!
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
are left wingers in the US really in favour of Castro's regime?
At least some, especially airheaded celebrities, yes.
Quote:
Or Pol Pot's genocide?
I wouldn't say they were in favor of it, but as it was arguably a consequence or byproduct of Vietnam, they never said, the way they do with Darfur, let's go in and stop it.
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Palestine is a different matter, because all sides there behave abominably. But throw out Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah, and the Israeli army
Okay, but a fair number of people are going to want some, but not all, of the groups you just listed thrown out, and be extraordinarily offended at the idea of throwing out the side they "favor."
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Subjectivity, then, you think is the divide. But if both Hamas and the Israeli army are engaging in torture, and you could stop them, wouldn't you stop them both?
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heya this thread is becoming off-topic. i'm gonna have to ask you to read the rules of conduct that you signed when you registered here, and give you a class-b warning. the next warning will have this thread moved to another website, and the originator of this thread will have his tires slashed. any questions, drop me a line at robkamphausen@robkamphausen.com
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In the new Authority book by Morrie, they get stranded in the real world. They even get some Authority trades. The team decides they're not gonna deal with all the shit in this world, at least for now, but the issue ends with Midnighter getting pissed at the US forces in Afghanistan because they shot down Apollo.
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You've always had a mad-on for Gene Ha, though... 
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no, I've always hated his art, but this is bad even for him.
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