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Millar's run on the Authority concluded with dialogue referring to how superheroes can't turn away anymore when they hear screams from another country's genocide.
It foreshadowed a crisis of realism v. fantasy - how can Superman and his ilk turn a blind eye to rapes and murders perpetrated against innocents in other places? But then how can a reader be expected to relate to characters with those powers without the backdrop of the normal life as the alter ego? And how can the character seriously fit into the world as we know it, with its crime, tyranny and injustice?
Paul Dini tried to address this in the oversized books (painted by alex Ross) in which Superman, delivering a shipoad of grain, is fired upon by an army with poisonous gas shells which render the grain toxic. Supes gives up on interfering in politics.
Mark Waid portrays the Flash as perpetually on the run in Central City in Kingdom Come, endlessly preventing crime and accidents and keeping the population entirely safe at the speed of light. This is similar to the Samaritan in Kurt Busiek's Astro City, who barely rests in his efforts to keep the world safe.
Mark Millar looks at the issue again in Red Son, where the communist tyrant Superman realises that he is nannying the Earth and fakes his death. Warren Ellis goes further, and postulates that the Fantastic Four would have to be criminally evil to be in existence and not change the world for the better.
But outside of these non-continuity titles, Superman is still a Pulitzer prize winning journalist who hangs out with his pals at the Daily Planet: Green Lantern has not re-ordered the planet and replaced tyrants with democracies: and Wonder Woman is still bleating about bringing peace to Man's World with a remarkable lack of success. And over at Marvel the heroes are all busy fighting each other over a piece of legislation.
Have there been any titles where the heroes make a difference?
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I'm not sure I see your point, Dave.
What, in your opinion, do you see as the difference THE AUTHORITY has made to the comics mainstream?
Speaking for myself, and my limited sampling of AUTHORITY, I don't see any great innovation.
Certainly nothing that hasn't already been explored first and better in Alan Moore's WATCHMEN, MIRACLEMAN, V FOR VENDETTA, and SWAMP THING.
And the Lee/Ditko SPIDERMAN taught us way back in 1963 that "With great power comes great responsibility."
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I don't see your point about AUTHORITY's uniqueness.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
And the Lee/Ditko SPIDERMAN taught us way back in 1963 that "With great power comes great responsibility."
Maybe I'm just being dense, but I don't see your point about AUTHORITY's uniqueness.
Read his post instead of once more jerking off to the silver/bronze age.
His point on Authority is interesting and valid. And Spider-man may have said the power and responsibility bs but they hardly showed it. Somehow great responsibility only meant punching out a bank robber here and there.
The question of whether a hero can turn their back on all the wrongs to simply punch bad guys at banks is valid.
Bow ties are coool.
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The authority changed the world. by force....is it worth it / No...that was the point. I don't know what millar is smoking now...
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I haven't even read a single issue of The Authority.
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You don't know how to read.
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The innovation in The Authority wasn't in the other titles you mention, Dave. It was the bald fact that if you're altruistically minded and have incomparable superpowers, how can you sit back and do nothing while innocents are murdered. Millar's run on the Authority begings with the team dumping the Indonesian president BJ Habibie into a truckful of corpses in East Timor, with surivors advancing on him with machetes, following the Indonesian-sponsored militia genocide of Timorese. It was Millar's contemporaneous act of revulsion enacted through the characters: they shared his revulsion and acted on it.
The Authority later intervene in Chechnya and, off-panel, Tibet. Its not a utopian change like Miracleman or Red Son - its acting decisively on conscience. In Watchmen, Dr Manhattan was so detached from his humanity that he regarded human life, even after his epiphany, as a terribly interesting science experiment. There was never altruism in his actions. And Stan Lee never had Spider-man assassinate Pol Pot or Mao Zedong, although in a real world a man with a conscience and his powers should certainly have at least contemplated it.
If there is a precedent, its WW2 writers of superheroes, who regularly through patriotism fought Nazis and Japanese. Starman recaptured the Aleytians from the Japanese, even though this didn't obviously happen in history.
Millar asks, if you had a power ring or whatever, would you sit around while people are hacked or bombed to death? And if you wouldn't, what's the vastly less-self interested Justice League or Avengers doing in their mansions or lunar headquarters doing?
And the answer is too difficult for mainstream comics to address.
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I dunno. The UN seems to be doing a good job of addressing such things....Oh wait.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The innovation in The Authority wasn't in the other titles you mention, Dave. It was the bald fact that if you're altruistically minded and have incomparable superpowers, how can you sit back and do nothing while innocents are murdered. Millar's run on the Authority begins with the team dumping the Indonesian president BJ Habibie into a truckful of corpses in East Timor, with survivors advancing on him with machetes, following the Indonesian-sponsored militia genocide of Timorese. It was Millar's contemporaneous act of revulsion enacted through the characters: they shared his revulsion and acted on it.
Okay, that gives me a clearer idea of what you mean. I previously read a few issues of the Warren Ellis series, 6 or 7 years ago, and all I saw was a group of powerful sadistic assholes calling themselves the Authority, who were kicking the crap out of people, comparable to PREACHER and other cynical profanity-laden celebrations of violence.
This Millar run you mention sounds interesting from what you describe, I'll check it out.
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
The Authority later intervene in Chechnya and, off-panel, Tibet.
Its not a utopian change like Miracleman or Red Son - its acting decisively on conscience.
In Watchmen, Dr Manhattan was so detached from his humanity that he regarded human life, even after his epiphany, as a terribly interesting science experiment. There was never altruism in his actions.
And Stan Lee never had Spider-man assassinate Pol Pot or Mao Zedong, although in a real world a man with a conscience and his powers should certainly have at least contemplated it.
Okay, again, clearer.
I see the distinction you make.
The one exception that I can think of that might cover the same ground is in ASTRO CITY #1, where the character who is basically Superman in all but name and costume, is rescuing people and stopping natural disasters all hours of the day and night. He doesn't allow himself to sleep or have time to himself, because he feels duty-bound to prevent any deaths he's capable of preventing.
But yeah, AUTHORITY as you describe it is going one step further than this, and dealing with specific real-world dictators and genocide.
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
If there is a precedent, its WW2 writers of superheroes, who regularly through patriotism fought Nazis and Japanese. Starman recaptured the Aleytians from the Japanese, even though this didn't obviously happen in history.
That patriotic confrontation with Nazis and the Imperial Japanese is, I think, what made comics so popular in the early 1940's, and so fondly remembered from that era long after.
While I think I'd like to check out the Millar issues, I'm repulsed by the level of over-the-top violence and cynicism in many of the books that pass for "realism" in comics over the last 15 years or so.
Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
Millar asks, if you had a power ring or whatever, would you sit around while people are hacked or bombed to death? And if you wouldn't, what's the vastly less-self interested Justice League or Avengers doing in their mansions or lunar headquarters doing?
And the answer is too difficult for mainstream comics to address.
Last time I looked, wasn't THE AUTHORITY published by the Wildstorm imprint of DC? To me, that's pretty mainstream, to be published by one of the Big Two publishers.
You probably mean a mainstream title, like SUPERMAN, BATMAN, SPIDERMAN or AVENGERS. But aside from it being unlikely that any of the main characters would die in the story, I don't see why these themes couldn't be explored in a mainstream title. Many other mainsteam titles have broken ground on political issues in the past, such as GREEN LANTERN/GREEN ARROW, SPIDERMAN, CAPTAIN AMERICA, DAREDEVIL, the 1985 HEROES FOR HOPE Africa-relief benefit book, and many others.
Why do you think this couldn't be done in a mainstream book, as you define mainstream?
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
While I think I'd like to check out the Millar issues, I'm repulsed by the level of over-the-top violence and cynicism in many of the books that pass for "realism" in comics over the last 15 years or so.
I wouldn't consider The Authority as having over-the-top violence. Which issues/moments are you basing this on? As for cynicism, I'd say exactly the opposite. The entire idealogy of the group is in fact one of progressive optimism: Improve the world.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
While I think I'd like to check out the Millar issues, I'm repulsed by the level of over-the-top violence and cynicism in many of the books that pass for "realism" in comics over the last 15 years or so.
I wouldn't consider The Authority as having over-the-top violence. Which issues/moments are you basing this on? As for cynicism, I'd say exactly the opposite. The entire idealogy of the group is in fact one of progressive optimism: Improve the world.
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I actually agree that it has over-the-top violence in it, which is to be frank one of the reasons I liked it.
Dave, the titles you cite really weren't comparable. GL/GA just addressed left-wing social issues in the 1970s, for example. It wasn't as if GL used his power ring to foil the oil shock or delivered Nixon to justice.
The Authority actively condemned and did something about the things we all talk about as being horrible when we read about them in the papers. In one scene the load thousands of East Timorese refugees on board their 50 mile long Carrier and negotiate with Tony Blair to take more of them into political asylum.
This sort of thing makes the JLA look pathetic. While they're busy fighting robots, people are gettting tortured in far away countries. One piece of dialogue has Jack Hawksmoor rebuking Bill Clinton, saying that if they're going to save the world from alien invasions, its got to be a world worth saving.
I agree with Pro - its a very positive message, asking why we or anyone should tolerate systemic abuses of human rights under the guise of sovereignty (a pro-invade Iraq argument, by the way).
And, yes no mainstream titles have really dared to address it properly.
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"Guise" of sovereignty? That's like saying it doesn't even exist.
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
I actually agree that it has over-the-top violence in it, which is to be frank one of the reasons I liked it.
Which moments are you talking about? When I think over-the-top violence, I think of things like Garth Ennis' MAX stories (Punisher, Fury, etc), and/or showing a character holding someone's entrails in their hands, and the like. From what I remember, The Authority's violence was mostly off-screen, and "edited" down by TPTB...like Apollo flying through Giant-Man's head. There was, in reality, nothing gory about the scene. It was left to the reader to fill-in-the-blanks. But, again, I could have forgotten about some scene...
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With all due respect, why should the JLA have to be more like the Authority, given they are different books?
Part of the problem with the comic book industry is that tendency for a unique book to be successful and then every other book has to start ripping it off to one extent or another.
Hell, DC is still strip mining large chunks of "Dark Knight Returns" over and over, to ever-diminishing returns.
It just seems to me that there should be an effort a greater diversity of styles, not following this or that trend, whether the trend is "silver age redux" or "hyper violence realism".
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I'm in agreement about trends being milked to death and stamping out any kind of creative diversity, G-man.
That's why I have so much affection for the 1985-and-prior eras in comics. There was a much wider selection of comics: war, western, romance, science fiction, sword-and-sorcery, humor, funny animals, etc.
Even within the realm of superhero comics, Claremont/Byrne X-MEN was completely different from Englehart Rogers DETECTIVE, Kirby's ETERNALS, Conway/Perez's JLA, Wolfman/Perez NEW TEEN TITANS, McGregor/Russell's AMAZING ADVENTURES/KILLRAVEN, Roger Stern's AMAZING SPIDERMAN or DOCTOR STRANGE, or Michelinie/Romita/Layton's IRON MAN.
And in addition to that diversity even within superhero comics, we also had Grell's WARLORD, STARSLAYER, and JON SABLE FREELANCE, CONAN and SAVAGE SWORD, the EPIC ILLUSTRATED anthology magazine, BIZARRE ADVENTURES, Jonah Hex, CREEPY, EERIE, VAMPIRELLA, HEAVY METAL, CEREBUS at its peak, the Eclipse line, DC's mystery titles, and a lot of other wide-ranging stuff.
Prometheus,the issues I read of the AUTHORITY were 13-16, from 2001, a story by Millar and Quitely.
And like I said, I wasn't impressed by any particular level of depth manifest there. It seemed to me that even while the Authority were killing the bad guys in this storyline, these were characters who took a sadistic pleasure in taking out the bad guys, and there was no standard of justice that the Authority adhered to.
I found the characters to be very unlikeable posturing badasses. Very unheroic.
I found it to be very dark, and lacking any optimism, or even humor. Perhaps you saw some optimism in those issues that I didn't. I'd like to know what in there qualifies as optimism.
It's funny that Dave sees the gratuitous violent side of the AUTHORITY, but still sees it as optimistic.
Myself, on the other hand, I see no optimism, or any other redeeming quality.
For me, this series (what I've read of it) makes V FOR VENDETTA look cheerful!
And at least in Vendetta's case, there was a larger redeeming message, of bringing down an authoritarian state, and of knowing that no matter what Evie was subjected to, she was willing to die without giving up her principles.
Again, I see V FOR VENDETTA, WATCHMEN, Moore's SWAMP THING, and MIRACLEMAN as miles above what AUTHORITY offers.
Again, in my opinion.
And I haven't read the whole series.
I'd like to know what set of issues either of you see as best representing what the authority has to offer.
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I think, to some extent, DC and Marvel (and especially Ellis, Millar and Bendis) have already jumped on the "rip off the Authority" bandwagon (though, to be fair to Ellis and Millar, they are essentially ripping themselves off, so its not quite so bad).
The whole JLA mindwiping debacle and the JSA plot with Black Adam taking over a country (and having some JSA'ers think it was a good idea) seem to be right out of the Authority playbook. At the same time, what are "Civil War" and "the Ultimates" if not attempts at imposing "Authority-style" sensibilities on more mainstream Marvel fare?
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
I found it to be very dark, and lacking any optimism, or even humor. Perhaps you saw some optimism in those issues that I didn't. I'd like to know what in there qualifies as optimism.
That they weren't there to uphold the status quo, like the corporate-safe Superman, Batman, etc. They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
So.... Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all fundamentally optimistic?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
So.... Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all fundamentally optimistic?
I'd say a better comparison is with Roosevelt, Johnson, Reagan, and Bush, amongst others who were optimistic about their use of force to make the world "safe for democracy" and the like.
I don't agree with George W. Bush's politics, but I do think he genuinely believed he could make the world a safer place through invading Iraq. He was fundamentally optimistic about the use of force in the Middle East working to bring about real change. Change did happen, but not in the way he hoped.
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Quote:
The Time Trust said:
I'd say a better comparison is with Roosevelt, Johnson, Reagan, and Bush, amongst others who were optimistic about their use of force to make the world "safe for democracy" and the like.
In pursuit of their own interests--Which is something they made clear to the public. G-man's list, on the other hand, contains people who wanted their principles to be enforced for the sheer sake of spreading what they percieved to be political enlightenment. There's a difference between promoting something that you know works and trying to convince people that something works
Quote:
I don't agree with George W. Bush's politics, but I do think he genuinely believed he could make the world a safer place through invading Iraq.
But again, who do you think he kept in mind as first priority? America or the rest of the world?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
So.... Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all fundamentally optimistic?
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
The Authority strove to make the world a better place. Whether it worked or not, they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing...
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Quote:
Pig Iran said:
The authority changed the world. by force....is it worth it / No...that was the point. I don't know what millar is smoking now...
I thought Millar's run on THE ULTIMATES and THE AUTHORITY was good for comics. He raised the idea of super-heroes intervening in "real world" type events. However, I do not see that it's mandatory that super-heroes take that approach. Or rather, it's not mandatory that writers make their characters do that.
I'm fine with X-MEN which clearly isn't taking that route. But I also enjoy EX MACHINA which clearly does take the approach that ones with power must act on social/political issues.
But Millar's RED SON was crap.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
But Millar's RED SON was crap.
Bite your tongue...
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Actually, DC's tackling this issue right now with the Freedom of Power Treaty started by Black Adam during 52 and OYL in Checkmate, US&FF, and GL.
With the treaty in full effect, heroes that are deemed Americans can no longer enter countries protected by the treaty without their permission (where as before all they needed was UN consent).
Now there's pretty much a metahuman arms race going on (America's attempt at re-creating the Freedom Fighters, before they caught on and went rogue, China's creation of their own super team, The Great Ten, Russia's re-establishment of the Rocket Red Corps, etc).
Heroes pretty much can't just come and go where they please anymore.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
The Authority strove to make the world a better place. Whether it worked or not, they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing...
In some ways, those leaders could be categorized as insane. It's possible that the Authority's mentality is in the same boat.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
So.... Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all fundamentally optimistic?
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
The Authority strove to make the world a better place. Whether it worked or not, they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing...
So didn't Hitler, Stalin and Mao.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I think, to some extent, DC and Marvel (and especially Ellis, Millar and Bendis) have already jumped on the "rip off the Authority" bandwagon (though, to be fair to Ellis and Millar, they are essentially ripping themselves off, so its not quite so bad).
The whole JLA mindwiping debacle and the JSA plot with Black Adam taking over a country (and having some JSA'ers think it was a good idea) seem to be right out of the Authority playbook. At the same time, what are "Civil War" and "the Ultimates" if not attempts at imposing "Authority-style" sensibilities on more mainstream Marvel fare?
Not really, because its not as if any real difference occurs from either of those titles/stories (JSA or Civil War). Its not as if Black Adam deposed Mugabe and now runs Zimbabwe. Similarly, V for Vendetta was set in a future totalitarian England, not 1980s thatcher's England, which was obviously when it was written.
I think what the Authority did was take the suspension of belief beyond just thinking a man can fly, or see through walls, or can change the course of mighty rivers, and stretch it. Now you also have to suspend your belief that an altruistic, hyperpotent human would not also bring about fundamental change to present, clear injustice in the world. You have to buy into a Morrison Superman view of superheroes - its pure fantastic escapism, without a shred of realism. Otherwise, the structure collapes.
Another example occurs to me: in JLA: A League of One, the Justice League deliberate intervening somewhere in Africa (from memory) and Superman says something like how they'll take guidance from the UN, as usual. Why Superman isn't guided by his own sense of justice isn't clear other than its a perpetuation of the illusion of reality, a plot device to explain their grossly negligent inaction in the face of evil and despair - that for some reason, not necessarily a good one, the four horsemen of the apocalypse haven't been stopped dead in their tracks throughout the world by this assembly of unstoppable superheroes.
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
They actually strove to make the world a better place through change. That's fundamentally optimistic to me...
So.... Hitler, Stalin and Mao were all fundamentally optimistic?
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
The Authority strove to make the world a better place. Whether it worked or not, they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing...
Spoken like a true neo-con! Zing!
I used to argue years and years ago at the Authority boards that infringing upon sovereignty in the way the Authority did was inherently dangerous, and all the rabid lefties thought I was a facist. I wonder what they think now post-Iraq.
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Joined: Mar 2004
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Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
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Son of Anarchist 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Grant Morrison said:
Batman vs. Al Qaeda! It might as well be Bin Laden vs. King Kong! Or how about the sinister Al Qaeda mastermind up against a hungry Hannibal Lecter! For all the good it's likely to do. Cheering on a fictional character as he beats up fictionalized terrorists seems like a decadent indulgence when real terrorists are killing real people in the real world. I'd be so much more impressed if Frank Miller gave up all this graphic novel nonsense, joined the Army and, with a howl of undying hate, rushed headlong onto the front lines with the young soldiers who are actually risking life and limb 'vs' Al Qaeda
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 43,958 Likes: 6
Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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Quote:
First Amongst Daves said:
...its not as if any real difference occurs from either of those titles/stories (JSA or Civil War). Its not as if Black Adam deposed Mugabe and now runs Zimbabwe.
But he does run some other, for lack of better term, third world country, albeit fictional, and that state of facts impacts how the heroes interact with that country, as well as how other nations do.
In addition, we saw Lex elected President, of course, something that would have been unheared even fifteen years ago I think.
Both of these situations drive home, more than anything else, that the DCU earth is no longer simply a mirror image of our earth, with superheroes and a couple of extra cities, but an honest to goodness alternate timeline/universe, more akin to the Authority or Watchmen than it was in the past.
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Joined: May 2003
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6000+ posts
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6000+ posts
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
Quote:
Jim Jackson said:
But Millar's RED SON was crap.
Bite your tongue...
Even if I bite my tongue, it won't make that a good story.
We all wear a green carnation.
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Yes, but it would make me laugh...
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 33,385 Likes: 4
Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Regenerated 15000+ posts
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Quote:
Pariah said:
Quote:
Prometheus said:
That's a bit of a stretch, don't you think?
The Authority strove to make the world a better place. Whether it worked or not, they genuinely believed they were doing the right thing...
In some ways, those leaders could be categorized as insane. It's possible that the Authority's mentality is in the same boat.
I would agree with that. I don't think it was ever a question of me seeing The Authority as "moral guides". I view the book as allowing me to witness and enjoy a world truly molded by proactive superhuman involvement...
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Joined: May 2003
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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But is that "optimistic"?
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Now you want to argue the definition of "optimistic"? I would call wanting to change the world for the better to be, inherently, optimistic...
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Joined: May 2003
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Officially "too old for this shit" 15000+ posts
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No, I don't want you to argue the definition of "optimistic". I'll rephrase.
Why do you think its optimistic for a group of potentially mentally ill superhumans to be forcing their will upon the earth?
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Joined: Feb 2001
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Quote:
Prometheus said:
I would call wanting to change the world for the better to be, inherently, optimistic...
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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Kisser Of John Byrne Ass 15000+ posts
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unless it's the neo-cons.
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