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Thank you, Grimm. It was interesting to read about Dinah and all her changes.
"I offer you a Vulcan prayer, Mr Suder. May your death bring you the peace you never found in life." - Tuvok. 
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The current retcon is going to have to be retconned soon.
If we accept Dinah is about thirty, then she was born in 1977 (or thereabouts).
At the same time, if we accept her mother was the Golden Age Black Canary, the we have to assume that her mother was in her late twenties or thirties when she was operating during the G(olden) A(ge).
This means that, when Dinah was born, her mother would have been in her late fifties ...or early sixties.
At some point, we lose the suspension of disbelief that the GA BC could be the mother of the current BC, if we haven't already lost it.
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stop showing off your cock, G-Man. you're just going to excite Rob again.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
The current retcon is going to have to be retconned soon.
If we accept Dinah is about thirty, then she was born in 1977 (or thereabouts).
At the same time, if we accept her mother was the Golden Age Black Canary, the we have to assume that her mother was in her late twenties or thirties when she was operating during the G(olden) A(ge).
This means that, when Dinah was born, her mother would have been in her late fifties ...or early sixties.
At some point, we lose the suspension of disbelief that the GA BC could be the mother of the current BC, if we haven't already lost it.
this is why I hate the sliding scale timelines that DC and Marvel use.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
That was so stupid that it was funny.
 Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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A sliding scale wouldn't be so bad if it were consistent. The problem is that it keeps changing on the modern side, while staying "frozen" for the Golden Age, meaning that the gap between events gets further and further apart.
The writers at DC seem unwilling, or unable, to accept that the Justice Society members would be in their eighties or even nineties by now. And, while I recognize that they've played games over the years with limbo and other things to retard the aging process, at some point it just becomes too unwieldly.
I think you have a growing similar problem at Marvel with Captain America. While I realize that he was in suspended animation, as WWII recedes further and further into the past it becomes more and more unbelievable that modern day Americans would even remember who he was when he gets thawed out.
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Well, if not a sliding scale for the time frames, how would you go about explaining origins and the time line? Seriously, would the option be to "ultimatize" the DCU? Or give completely new origins to the characters? I don't see how else it could be done.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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well if it was consistent, it wouldn't be a "sliding scale." y'know? it'd just be a timeline. which would work.
I don't think the JSA is as much of a problem as it used to be, considering 90% of the originals are dead. They're not really a good example anymore. The few originals that are alive all have sufficient explanations in place for not being as old as they should.
but Black Canary related, at her current age, she could be the granddaughter of the original in a set timeline and still be the same age. course she did take a dip in a Lazarus Pit recently. (which is in the article)
I don't know if Cap. America is as much a problem for Marvel as much as things like say, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fighting in WW2, or Tony Stark being in Vietnam, and those things constantly having to be revised/rewritten/reconfigured, etc.
the whole thing just becomes really silly after a while when some characters age and others don't. ala the original Teen Titans as compared to their mentors.
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Quote:
PJP said:
I agree.
you just want to see G-Man's cock again.
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Quote:
Grimm said:
well if it was consistent, it wouldn't be a "sliding scale." y'know? it'd just be a timeline. which would work.
But how would it work without aging the characters or constantly replacing them? BC is an example of taking the mantle from her mom and it worked, but just try that with the Trinity on a permanent basis. Remember Knightfall, etc.? As popular as Nightwing is, and as logical as him being the next Batman (or Tim Drake - you get what I'm trying to say here) would be, how many fanboys would want that? Or accept that? Look at the shitstorm that was raised when Azbats was around way back in the early '90's. It worked bc it was temporary and the fans pretty much knew that - but imagine replacing Bruce Bats with someone else on a permanent basis. I don't see that option working.
And while aging the heroes in order to keep up with a normal timeline would work for a one shot or mini (a la DKR) would it really work on an ongoing basis?
And let's face it - fans are attached to certain origins and facts about their characters. Batman/WW/Supes' origins and facts about them can change with the times and yet remain esentially the same, but what about Cap's? Does he stop being a WW2 vet and become a Desert Storm one instead? Or how about Ollie being a hippy or Tony being in Vietnam, as the article said. Does everyone have to take a dip in the Lazarus pit or frozen in ice to keep these facts in their history?
Truthfully, I like the idea that certain things can be tweaked, but fanboys are an obsessive lot and I think DC and Marvel are aware of this.
Quote:
but Black Canary related, at her current age, she could be the granddaughter of the original in a set timeline and still be the same age. course she did take a dip in a Lazarus Pit recently. (which is in the article)
I don't know if Cap. America is as much a problem for Marvel as much as things like say, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fighting in WW2, or Tony Stark being in Vietnam, and those things constantly having to be revised/rewritten/reconfigured, etc.
the whole thing just becomes really silly after a while when some characters age and others don't. ala the original Teen Titans as compared to their mentors.
See, that I agree with - it makes no sense that Nightwing and Arsenal are in their early-mid twenties and Bruce and Ollie have only aged 5 or 6 years. But silly though it may be, I still don't see how that can be worked around without a scale or tweaking the hstory - the latter I thinlk the companies are loathe to do.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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Quote:
Grimm said:
I don't know if Cap. America is as much a problem for Marvel as much as things like say, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fighting in WW2, or Tony Stark being in Vietnam, and those things constantly having to be revised/rewritten/reconfigured, etc.
The reason I mentioned Cap was that (A) we were talking about WWII; and (B) Cap's whole personna is tied to that era and the idea that he's "the living LEGEND" of that war. At some point, Marvel needs to accept that, to most of their readers, WWII might as well be the Civil War or the Revolutionary War and stop writing the character as if everyone in their universe has vivid memories of Cap's exploits during that era.
Let's face it: the average person under forty probably doesn't know who Jimmy Doolittle, Audie Murphy and/or Pappy Boyington are either.
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Canary would probably be affected by the Ian Karkull effect like all the other JSAers.
Canary though should be the one second generation hero that you have least to complain about as she is probably the oldest of the second gen heroes/villains, with the children of the other JSAers being younger than her.
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Quote:
Nowhereman said:
Canary though should be the one second generation hero that you have least to complain about as she is probably the oldest of the second gen heroes/villains, with the children of the other JSAers being younger than her.
True, but most of the other JSAers are men. Men can father children in their sixties no problem. But women eventually go through menopause and become sterile, usually in their late forties or early fifties.
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I say either make the characters age in real time (which DC or Marvel would never do), or fuck continuity and openly ignore the problem. Don't try to rationalize what makes no sense. Every time a fanboy writes a letter saying "How come Spider-Man went to school in the 60's?", tell him "Go fuck yourself, it's just superhero comics."
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Quote:
Im Not Mister Mxypltk said:
I say either make the characters age in real time (which DC or Marvel would never do), or fuck continuity and openly ignore the problem. Don't try to rationalize what makes no sense. Every time a fanboy writes a letter saying "How come Spider-Man went to school in the 60's?", tell him "Go fuck yourself, it's just superhero comics."
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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The thread title is very misleading!
Signed,
Beardguy
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Quote:
harleykwin said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
well if it was consistent, it wouldn't be a "sliding scale." y'know? it'd just be a timeline. which would work.
But how would it work without aging the characters or constantly replacing them? BC is an example of taking the mantle from her mom and it worked, but just try that with the Trinity on a permanent basis. Remember Knightfall, etc.? As popular as Nightwing is, and as logical as him being the next Batman (or Tim Drake - you get what I'm trying to say here) would be, how many fanboys would want that? Or accept that? Look at the shitstorm that was raised when Azbats was around way back in the early '90's. It worked bc it was temporary and the fans pretty much knew that - but imagine replacing Bruce Bats with someone else on a permanent basis. I don't see that option working.
Azbats was supposed to raise a shitstorm. he was never intended to permanently replace the original. different scenario.
Quote:
And while aging the heroes in order to keep up with a normal timeline would work for a one shot or mini (a la DKR) would it really work on an ongoing basis?
And let's face it - fans are attached to certain origins and facts about their characters. Batman/WW/Supes' origins and facts about them can change with the times and yet remain esentially the same, but what about Cap's? Does he stop being a WW2 vet and become a Desert Storm one instead? Or how about Ollie being a hippy or Tony being in Vietnam, as the article said. Does everyone have to take a dip in the Lazarus pit or frozen in ice to keep these facts in their history?
Truthfully, I like the idea that certain things can be tweaked, but fanboys are an obsessive lot and I think DC and Marvel are aware of this.
see, this is why I liked Byrne's first Generations mini. elegant solutions to all these problems.
fanboys at some point, are just going to have to realize that some things will have to be let go. If they can't well, I think we've already seen what those new "multiple earths" are for, don't you? 
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Quote:
MisterJLA said:
The thread title is very misleading!
Signed,
Beardguy
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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Quote:
the G-man said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
I don't know if Cap. America is as much a problem for Marvel as much as things like say, Reed Richards and Ben Grimm fighting in WW2, or Tony Stark being in Vietnam, and those things constantly having to be revised/rewritten/reconfigured, etc.
The reason I mentioned Cap was that (A) we were talking about WWII; and (B) Cap's whole personna is tied to that era and the idea that he's "the living LEGEND" of that war. At some point, Marvel needs to accept that, to most of their readers, WWII might as well be the Civil War or the Revolutionary War and stop writing the character as if everyone in their universe has vivid memories of Cap's exploits during that era.
Let's face it: the average person under forty probably doesn't know who Jimmy Doolittle, Audie Murphy and/or Pappy Boyington are either.
yes, but Cap has traditionally provided less of a problem for most on the acceptability scale. maybe he's just gotten overlooked.
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Seeing as how he has the Batman Begins av, I'd like to read Knutreturns' take on all this...
"Are you eating it...or is it eating you?" [center] [/center] [center] [/center]
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fuck continuity. just tell good stories. if fan boys bitch...oh well.
big_pimp_tim-made it cool to roll in the first damn place! Mon Jun 11 2007 09:27 PM- harley finally rolled with me "I'm working with him...he's young but, there is much potential. He can apprentice with me and then he's yours for final training. He will remember the face of his father... Some day, Knutreturns just may be the greatest of us all...."-THE bastard
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big_pimp_tim-made it cool to roll in the first damn place! Mon Jun 11 2007 09:27 PM- harley finally rolled with me "I'm working with him...he's young but, there is much potential. He can apprentice with me and then he's yours for final training. He will remember the face of his father... Some day, Knutreturns just may be the greatest of us all...."-THE bastard
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Quote:
Grimm said:
Quote:
harleykwin said:
Quote:
Grimm said:
well if it was consistent, it wouldn't be a "sliding scale." y'know? it'd just be a timeline. which would work.
But how would it work without aging the characters or constantly replacing them? BC is an example of taking the mantle from her mom and it worked, but just try that with the Trinity on a permanent basis. Remember Knightfall, etc.? As popular as Nightwing is, and as logical as him being the next Batman (or Tim Drake - you get what I'm trying to say here) would be, how many fanboys would want that? Or accept that? Look at the shitstorm that was raised when Azbats was around way back in the early '90's. It worked bc it was temporary and the fans pretty much knew that - but imagine replacing Bruce Bats with someone else on a permanent basis. I don't see that option working.
Azbats was supposed to raise a shitstorm. he was never intended to permanently replace the original.
I said that!
But my point was, it was a shitstorm when the fanboys knew it was only temporary.
Imagine what the reaction would be if it was permanent.
Quote:
And while aging the heroes in order to keep up with a normal timeline would work for a one shot or mini (a la DKR) would it really work on an ongoing basis?
And let's face it - fans are attached to certain origins and facts about their characters. Batman/WW/Supes' origins and facts about them can change with the times and yet remain esentially the same, but what about Cap's? Does he stop being a WW2 vet and become a Desert Storm one instead? Or how about Ollie being a hippy or Tony being in Vietnam, as the article said. Does everyone have to take a dip in the Lazarus pit or frozen in ice to keep these facts in their history?
Truthfully, I like the idea that certain things can be tweaked, but fanboys are an obsessive lot and I think DC and Marvel are aware of this.
see, this is why I liked Byrne's first Generations mini. elegant solutions to all these problems.
fanboys at some point, are just going to have to realize that some things will have to be let go. If they can't well, I think we've already seen what those new "multiple earths" are for, don't you?
Hmmm...
I think I like myx's answer best.
But speaking of "multiple earths," just how many are there now. I haven't followed 52, and just kept to my regular titles which haven't really gone into the multiple earth thing.
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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52 of em...(earths that is)
big_pimp_tim-made it cool to roll in the first damn place! Mon Jun 11 2007 09:27 PM- harley finally rolled with me "I'm working with him...he's young but, there is much potential. He can apprentice with me and then he's yours for final training. He will remember the face of his father... Some day, Knutreturns just may be the greatest of us all...."-THE bastard
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Quote:
Knutreturns said:
52 of em...(earths that is)
Are you serious?
Dear, sweet Harley Kwink...I'm madly in love with you. Marry me! We can go to Canadia. Or Boston or something. It'll be grand...You know the cookies are a given. They are ALWAYS a given. You could dump me tomorrow and you'd still get the cookies. Boston..shit, wherever dyke weddings were legalized. And where better to rub their little piggie noses in how bad they suck than right on their doorstep? What are they gonna do? Be jealous of you? Stare furiously at your tah-tahs? Not willingly give you cookies, but instead begrudgingly give you their cookies? Woman, time to wake up to the powers you wield - Uschi
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Joined: May 2005
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big_pimp_tim-made it cool to roll in the first damn place! Mon Jun 11 2007 09:27 PM- harley finally rolled with me "I'm working with him...he's young but, there is much potential. He can apprentice with me and then he's yours for final training. He will remember the face of his father... Some day, Knutreturns just may be the greatest of us all...."-THE bastard
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1
living in 1962 15000+ posts
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living in 1962 15000+ posts
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 19,546 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
harleykwin said:
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Grimm said:
Quote:
harleykwin said:
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Grimm said:
well if it was consistent, it wouldn't be a "sliding scale." y'know? it'd just be a timeline. which would work.
But how would it work without aging the characters or constantly replacing them? BC is an example of taking the mantle from her mom and it worked, but just try that with the Trinity on a permanent basis. Remember Knightfall, etc.? As popular as Nightwing is, and as logical as him being the next Batman (or Tim Drake - you get what I'm trying to say here) would be, how many fanboys would want that? Or accept that? Look at the shitstorm that was raised when Azbats was around way back in the early '90's. It worked bc it was temporary and the fans pretty much knew that - but imagine replacing Bruce Bats with someone else on a permanent basis. I don't see that option working.
Azbats was supposed to raise a shitstorm. he was never intended to permanently replace the original.
I said that!
But my point was, it was a shitstorm when the fanboys knew it was only temporary.
Imagine what the reaction would be if it was permanent.
back to Generations, my dear. Bats. Ras. fight to the death in a Lazarus Pit. No need for a replacement. see what I'm gettin at?
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1
We already are 15000+ posts
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We already are 15000+ posts
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 32,001 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Knutreturns said:
Quote:
PJP said:
yup
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