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The 9/11 Commission has apprently found that there was no link between OBL and Saddam.
Bush is still insisting upon a connection in a radio broadcast I heard this morning. I'm with Bush. I think OBL and Saddam, on the evidence, clearly had a mature and loving homosexual relationship. So what that OBL called Saddam an infidel. They were just teasing each other. Sooner or later we are going to find the smoking gun photographs of the two men holding hands and buying bathroom scales at Home Depot. Then all doubts will be swept aside.
Elvis told me.
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I'll respond to this thread when I find my tin-foil hat.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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You can borrow mine, if you want.
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I found mine in my underground Y2K bunker.
November 6th, 2012: Americas new Independence Day.
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We should get Bat-boy to kick those fags asses!
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 Who do you think captured that fuck?
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Quote:
Dave said:
The 9/11 Commission has apprently found that there was no link between OBL and Saddam.
Not exactly.
As noted in the Wall St. Journal:
The "no Saddam link" story is getting so much play because it fits the broader antiwar, anti-Bush narrative that Iraq was a "distraction" from the broader war on terror. So once again the 9/11 Commission is being used to tarnish the Iraqi effort and damage President Bush's credibility in fighting terror.
Even here, though, the staff report is less a "slam dunk," as the CIA likes to say, than the coverage asserts. We are supposed to believe, for example, that the Commission has found out once and for all that there was no meeting in Prague between the Iraqi agent al-Ani and 9/11 hijacker Mohammed Atta. But the only new evidence the report turns up is that some calls were made from Florida on Atta's cell phone at the same time he was reportedly in Prague. And since that phone would not have worked in Europe anyway, how do we know someone else wasn't using it? The Czechs still believe the Atta meeting took place, and the truth is we still don't know for sure.
There's also the testimony the Commission heard Wednesday from Patrick Fitzgerald. The former Manhattan prosecutor was asked about his 1998 indictment against Osama bin Laden that asserted that al Qaeda had an "understanding" with Iraq that it would not "work against that government" and that "on certain projects, specifically including weapons development," they would "work cooperatively."Mr. Fitzgerald testified that "there was that relationship that went from opposing each other to not opposing each other to possibly working with each other."
Somehow the Commission also omitted any reference to Mr. Tenet's 2002 letter to Congress. "We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda going back a decade," he wrote. And, "We have credible reporting that al-Qaeda's leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire W.M.D. capabilities. The reporting also stated that Iraq has provided training to al-Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs."
We could go on, but suffice to say that the report hardly disproves any Saddam-al Qaeda link. Mr. Bush was entirely correct when he said yesterday that, "The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al-Qaeda is because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda." The extent of those ties is the issue, and it is essential to U.S. security that we keep probing them. In particular, the President should order the release of some of the official Iraqi documents that coalition forces have captured in Iraq and that shed additional light on that relationship.
We thought everyone had learned the hard way on 9/11 that the greatest security danger comes not from taking threats too seriously but from dismissing them too easily. Apparently some people have forgotten that lesson already.
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Spy Work in Iraq Riddled by Failures
I had planned to post this in the "Iraq" thread and i'll probably put it there in detail. If we're going to naggingly cling to bad intel, I feel the need to call it as such.
Last edited by whomod; 2004-06-18 5:31 AM.
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Quote:
The White House makes its case
The commission staff investigating the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks said Wednesday there was no evidence that Iraq helped Al Qaeda attack the United States, contrary to suggestions by the Bush administration. Following are statements by the administration on the alleged ties:
Tuesday
In a meeting with reporters during a visit by Afghan President Hamid Karzai, President Bush was asked what the evidence had been linking Iraq to Al Qaeda. "Zarqawi. Zarqawi's the best evidence of a connection to Al Qaeda affiliates and Al Qaeda," Bush said in reference to Islamist militant Abu Musab Zarqawi.
Monday
Vice President Dick Cheney told members of a conservative think tank in Orlando, Fla., that former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein "had long-established ties with Al Qaeda."
Sept. 14, 2003
Cheney, interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press," said: "It's not surprising the public would believe [Hussein] was involved in the attacks. We learned more and more that there was a relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s."
Feb. 5, 2003
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell made a case for the war against Iraq before the U.N. Security Council by linking Zarqawi, suspected of plotting the killing of a U.S. diplomat in Jordan, to Al Qaeda. Powell said Zarqawi was an associate of Osama bin Laden and part of a "sinister nexus between Iraq and the Al Qaeda."
Jan. 28, 2003
In his State of the Union speech, Bush said evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements from people in custody revealed that Hussein "aids and protects terrorists," including members of Al Qaeda, and could provide them with weapons of mass destruction.
Oct. 14, 2002
In a campaign speech in Michigan, Bush said of Hussein: "This is a man that we know has had connections with Al Qaeda. This is a man who, in my judgment, would like to use Al Qaeda as a forward army."
Reuters
chumps. To paraphrase Edward R. Murrow (a hero of mine) "No one can [mislead] a whole nation, unless we are all his accomplices."
(about Senator Joseph McCarthy's accusations about Communism in the American government)
Quote:
June 17, 2004
THE SEPT. 11 COMMISSION
No Signs of Iraq-Al Qaeda Ties Found
9/11 report appears to dismiss a key rationale made by Bush to topple the Hussein regime.
By Josh Meyer, Times Staff Writer
WASHINGTON — The commission staff investigating the Sept. 11 attacks said Wednesday that it had found "no credible evidence" of cooperation between Iraq and Al Qaeda in targeting America or of any other collaboration between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden's terrorism network.
The findings appeared to be the most complete and authoritative dismissal of a key Bush administration rationale for invading Iraq: that Hussein's regime had worked in collusion with Al Qaeda.
Bin Laden made overtures to Hussein in the mid-1990s while he was in Sudan and again after he went to Afghanistan in 1996, but they "do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship," the staff said in a report. And two of Bin Laden's most senior associates, interrogated by U.S. authorities, "have adamantly denied that any ties existed between Al Qaeda and Iraq."
Also, a much-publicized meeting between a senior Iraqi intelligence official in Prague and lead hijacker Mohamed Atta appears not to have occurred, the commission report concluded. It based that finding on cellphone records showing Atta was in Florida at the time.
As recently as Monday, Vice President Dick Cheney said in a speech in Orlando, Fla., that Hussein "had long-standing ties with Al Qaeda." Asked Tuesday about Cheney's remarks, President Bush said he supported them.
The commission, as a matter of procedure, has not endorsed any of the staff's 16 reports to date, but is expected to include them in its official report due July 26. Some of the commission's Republican members suggested during questioning Wednesday that they may not agree ultimately with the staff findings.
The staff's analysts on the Iraq issue and on Al Qaeda include Douglas J. MacEachin, former deputy director of intelligence for the CIA, and other senior intelligence and law enforcement officials.
The White House had no immediate comment Wednesday on the report's conclusion on the lack of an Iraq-Al Qaeda link, a spokesman said.
But the conclusions prompted immediate accusations from Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts, the presumed Democratic presidential nominee.
"The administration misled America, the administration reached too far, they did not tell the truth to Americans about what was happening or their own intentions," Kerry told a National Public Radio affiliate in Michigan.
In two staff reports and in a lengthy hearing Wednesday, the commission also disclosed a wealth of details about Bin Laden and his transformation of Al Qaeda into a paramilitary operation.
The organization turned out perhaps 20,000 trained soldiers for Islamic conflicts around the globe — but saved the most promising recruits for terrorism plots of its own.
Bin Laden and Al Qaeda forged alliances with another global terrorism group, Hezbollah. And while there was no alliance with Iraq, there were with the governments of several other nations, the independent commission concluded.
Operating as much like a statesman as a terrorist, Bin Laden entered into mutually beneficial relationships with the leaders of Sudan, Iran and Afghanistan that provided him with the protection and resources to expand Al Qaeda from a small group of militants into a global organization run much like a corporation.
There were also some surprises, according to the commission staff's findings. Among them:
• Al Qaeda appears to have played a role in the attack on the Khobar Towers military barracks in Saudi Arabia in 1996 that killed 19 U.S. military personnel and injured hundreds more. The attack long has been attributed to Saudi Hezbollah, a radical Islamic group.
• Bin Laden, contrary to popular belief, did not use his share of a family fortune to finance Al Qaeda's growth or its acts of terror. The Saudi exile received about $1 million a year, but not his $300-million inheritance, relying instead on his charisma, networking skills and fundraising efforts to pay for the global jihad.
• Al Qaeda operated at times like a Fortune 500 company, with special committees for fundraising, budgeting, employee expenses and travel, training and for issuing religious decrees, proposing terrorist targets and authorizing attacks. But it also employed spies, infiltrators and well-placed financial facilitators to raise money, strong-arming contributions from some charities and mosques while surreptitiously taking over others to divert funds.
As a result, Al Qaeda was raising about $30 million a year or more, and distributing it equally quickly.
The actual terrorism operations were relatively inexpensive; the Sept. 11 attacks cost between $400,000 and $500,000, and others were far cheaper, the commission staff found.
Supporting global jihad was more costly, with millions a year going to pay for broader terror operations such as maintaining training camps in Afghanistan and elsewhere, paying the salaries of jihadists — or "holy war" fighters — and contributing to other terrorist organizations.
The report traced Al Qaeda's roots to 1992, when Bin Laden began forming a coalition of previously independent terrorist groups, uniting them into a broader Islamic army that spanned most of the Middle Eastern countries and Africa. He also made connections with several governments, which in turn helped Al Qaeda launch attacks and spread its influence.
In Sudan, Bin Laden set up training camps, weapons and supply depots and front companies to acquire weapons, explosives and technical equipment. And intelligence officers of the Sudanese government provided false passports and shipping documents. In December 1992, soldiers trained in Bin Laden's camps in Sudan began attacking the United States, bombing two hotels in Aden, Yemen — a stopover for U.S. troops en route to Somalia.
A year later, Bin Laden trainees helped in the attack on two U.S. Blackhawk helicopters in Mogadishu, Somalia, that led to the killing of 18 U.S. soldiers. Evidence that the Sudan government aided Bin Laden continued through 1996, according to the staff.
They described Khobar Towers as "a case study in the collaboration" between Al Qaeda and Sudan.
In that 1996 attack, Bin Laden supplied the money for the explosives, and the Sudanese Ministry of Defense served as a conduit for bringing them into Sudan. They were stored in the warehouse of a Bin Laden business, then transported under the cover of Sudan Ministry of Defense invoice papers into Saudi Arabia.
The staff also concluded that although the attack was carried out by a Saudi-based Hezbollah cell with assistance from Iran, Al Qaeda appears to have played a role as well.
Bin Laden also worked with Iranian officials on other projects — despite their religious differences as Sunni and Shiite Muslims.
One small group of Al Qaeda operatives, for instance, traveled to Iran and another went to Hezbollah camps in Lebanon for training in explosives and intelligence, according to the commission staff. Hezbollah's expertise in such bombings, as shown in its 1983 attack in Lebanon that killed 241 U.S. Marines, would soon be mimicked by Al Qaeda in attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa and elsewhere.
During his time in Sudan, Bin Laden also "explored" possible cooperation with Iraq despite his opposition to Hussein's secular regime.
Bin Laden at one time sponsored anti-Hussein Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan, but agreed to cease that support because Sudan wanted to keep good relations with Iraq. So Bin Laden allowed a senior Iraqi intelligence officer to make three visits to Sudan, and to finally meet with him personally in 1994, the report said.
At that time, it added, Bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps and assistance in procuring weapons, "but Iraq apparently never responded."
"So far," the report concluded, "we have no credible evidence that Iraq and Al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."
Once in Afghanistan, Bin Laden paid $10 million to $20 million to maintain diplomatic relations with the Taliban, receiving protection in return. Soon, he would join forces with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and begin plotting the Sept. 11 attacks. At first, the plot was based on Mohammed's failed plans to blow up a dozen U.S. jetliners over the Pacific Ocean.
But Bin Laden was a micromanager with intense interest in details of Al Qaeda attacks, changing targets and suicide bombers at the last moment.
The camps in Afghanistan soon flourished.
"A worldwide jihad needed terrorists who could bomb embassies or hijack airliners, but it also needed foot soldiers for the Taliban in its war against the Northern Alliance, and guerrillas who could shoot down Russian helicopters in Chechnya or ambush Indian units in Kashmir," the staff said.
According to one unnamed senior Al Qaeda associate, trainees were encouraged to think big, floating options like taking over a launcher and forcing Russian scientists to fire a nuclear missile at the United States, mounting mustard gas or cyanide attacks against Jewish areas in Iraq and releasing poison gas into the air-conditioning system of a targeted building.
"Last but not least, hijacking an aircraft and crashing it into an airport or nearby city," the report said.
According to the staff, the Taliban's ability to provide Al Qaeda with a haven, despite mounting international pressure, was critically important in its ability to pull off the Sept. 11 attacks.
The staff concluded that some governments may have turned a blind eye to Al Qaeda's fundraising activities — including Saudi Arabia, long considered the primary source of Al Qaeda funding. But the staff found no evidence that the Saudi government as an institution or senior officials within the Riyadh government funded Al Qaeda.
*
Last edited by whomod; 2004-06-18 5:38 AM.
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Saddam Hussein and the Devil are apparently gay lovers, too. I have my sources.
MisterJLA is RACKing awesome.
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Yes, if we could please get back on topic of Bat Boy dry humping Osama's dead carcass I would appreciate it.
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Many people seem to be operating on the basis that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is an assumption whihc entirely ignores the fact the OBL is an Islamist extremist, and Saddam is a Stalin-inspited secularist.
If there was a proven link, not just conjecture based upon innuendo built upon vague and inconsistant facts, this would make the invasion of Iraq just as justifiable as the invasion of Afghanistan.
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Quote:
Dave said:
OBL is an Islamist extremist, and Saddam is a Stalin-inspited secularist.
So does that mean they couldn't breed? Or that, if they did, the offspring would be a mule???
Uschi said:I won't rape you, I'll just fuck you 'till it hurts and then not stop and you'll cry. MisterJLA: RACKS so hard, he called Jim Rome "Chris Everett." In Him, all porn is possible. He is far above mentions in so-called "blogs." RACK him, lest ye be lost! "I can't even brush my teeth without gagging!" - Tommy Tantillo: Wank & Cry, heckpuppy, and general laughingstock ![[Linked Image from i6.photobucket.com]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y203/JoeMama13/RedSoxBanner05.png)
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Quote:
Joe Mama said:
Quote:
Dave said:
OBL is an Islamist extremist, and Saddam is a Stalin-inspited secularist.
So does that mean they couldn't breed? Or that, if they did, the offspring would be a mule???
Pretty much so, yep.
One is the antithesis of the other. The only think they have in common is antipathy towards the West.
Saddam was inspired by Nasser and his dream of a pan-Arab state, which placed emphaiss on secular nationalism. OBL thinks the Middle East should be extremist Islamic. There is no room for one vision in the other.
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Quote:
Bush Insists on Iraq-Al Qaeda Links Despite Report
Thu Jun 17, 6:12 PM ET
By David Morgan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush, on the defensive over the Iraq war, insisted on Thursday that Saddam Hussein had a dangerous relationship with al Qaeda, a day after the independent Sept. 11 commission reported no evidence of collaboration between the two.
Responding to the latest challenge to his policy in Iraq, Bush asserted that there were "numerous contacts" between Saddam and al Qaeda operatives that justified the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.
"The reason I keep insisting that there was a relationship between Iraq and Saddam and al Qaeda is because there was a relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda," the Republican president told reporters after meeting with his Cabinet.
But he denied accusations by critics that his administration encouraged people to believe Saddam had a role in the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks which killed 3,000 people and prompted the U.S. war on terrorism.
"This administration never said that the 9/11 attacks were orchestrated between Saddam and al Qaeda," Bush said. "We did say there were numerous contacts between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda."
Intelligence reports of a link between Saddam and the militant group behind the 2001 attacks formed a cornerstone of Bush's rationale for the invasion of Iraq, where more than 830 U.S. soldiers have died after 14 months of violence.
In the months before the war, Bush and top aides including Vice President Dick Cheney warned that Saddam possessed weapons of mass destruction and could supply them to al Qaeda. No such weapons have been found in Iraq.
The bipartisan commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks did say there had been contact between Iraqis and al Qaeda members, including a Sudan meeting between al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and Iraqi intelligence officers.
But the panel concluded that Iraq never responded to a bin Laden request for help and said there was no evidence of a "collaborative relationship."
The commission report was issued as the Bush administration was renewing assertions of links between Saddam and al Qaeda. "He (Saddam) had long established ties with al Qaeda," Cheney said in a speech on Monday.
Democrats and other critics said the report entitled "Overview of the Enemy" showed the administration had lost all credibility on Iraq.
"It is clear that the president owes the American people a fundamental explanation about why he rushed to war for a purpose that it now turns out is not supported by the facts," said Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry, who is locked in a tight election battle against Bush.
But the White House asserted that the administration position on Iraq-al Qaeda links was not in conflict with the Sept. 11 commission's findings.
Asked if the administration believed the commission staff report was wrong, White House spokesman Scott McClellan replied: "No ... What they said was that there were high-level contacts, going back for quite some time. And that's consistent with what we said prior to going into Iraq and removing that regime from power."
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Quote:
Dave said:
One is the antithesis of the other. The only think they have in common is antipathy towards the West.
Sometimes that's enough.
Let's assume you're correct.
Why wouldn't Saddam find it advantageous to direct Islamic fundamentalists away from his own regime and towards the U.S.?
Furthermore, Saddam has funded Islamic fundamentalist terrorism against Israel. Why wouldn't he also do so against the US, depsite they alleged differences?
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06 November 1998 TEXT: US GRAND JURY INDICTMENT AGAINST USAMA BIN LADEN United States District Court Southern District of New York New York -- A U.S. Federal Grand Jury in New York on Nov. 5 issued an indictment against Usama Bin Laden alleging that he and others engaged in a long-term conspiracy to attack U.S. facilities overseas and to kill American citizens. The indictment noted that Al Qaeda, Bin Laden's international terrorist group, forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in Sudan and with the government of Iran and with its associated group Hezballah to "work together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States." Additionally, the indictment states that Al Qaeda reached an agreement with Iraq not to work against the regime of Saddam Hussein and that they would work cooperatively with Iraq, particularly in weapons development. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/11/98110602_nlt.html
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Condi tells us what the 9/11 commission actually meant! 
Quote:
9/11 Report Cited No Iraqi 'Control' of Qaeda - Rice
8 minutes ago
By David Morgan
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In publishing a report that cited no evidence of a collaborative relationship between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, the Sept. 11 commission actually meant to say that Iraq had no control over the network, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice said on Friday.
As the White House strove to curb potential damage to President Bush's credibility on Iraq, his closest aide on international security denied any inconsistency between the bipartisan panel's findings and Bush's insistence that a Saddam-Qaeda relationship existed.
"What I believe the 9-11 commission was opining on was operational control, an operational relationship between al Qaeda and Iraq which we never alleged," Rice said in an interview with National Public Radio.
"The president simply outlined what we knew about what al Qaeda and Iraq had done together. Operational control to me would mean that he (Saddam) was, perhaps, directing what al Qaeda would do."
Intelligence reports of links between Saddam and the group blamed for the 2001 attacks formed a cornerstone of Bush's rationale for the invasion and occupation of the turbulent Arab country, where 833 U.S. soldiers have died after 14 months of violence.
The chairman and vice chairman of the Sept. 11 commission differed with Rice's characterization of their panel's findings in separate interviews with Reuters.
"We don't think there was any relationship whatsoever having to do with 9/11. Whether al Qaeda and Saddam were cooperating on other things against the United States, we don't know," Commission Chairman Thomas Kean said.
Vice Chairman Lee Hamilton said he was unaware of anyone ever claiming that Saddam had directed al Qaeda.
"The word 'control' is new," Hamilton said.
"The president talks in terms of a relationship between the two. The vice president talks in terms of a tie between the two. We talk in terms of contacts between the two," he added.
"All of those words are similar, but clearly relationship and ties suggest more than contacts."
The Sept. 11 commission's staff report said there had been contact between Iraqis and al Qaeda members including a Sudan meeting between al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) and Iraqi intelligence officers.
But the panel concluded that Iraq never responded to a bin Laden request for help and said there was no evidence of a "collaborative relationship."
Thanks for clearing that up Condi. Otherwise I would have thought Sadaam had nothing to do with 9/11! 
If only we could filter all news thru the prism of her impartial analysis.
SPIN baby, SPIN!!
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Quote:
9/11 Panel Wants Evidence From Cheney
WASHINGTON - Nearing the end of its work, the Sept. 11 commission is inviting Vice President Dick Cheney to provide any evidence he has that would show links between al-Qaida and Iraq under Saddam Hussein, a panel member said Saturday.
He said the panel also wants to follow up its questioning of President Bush 's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice and CIA Director George Tenet.
The Cheney request culminates a week in which the commission said it found no evidence of collaboration between Saddam's Iraq and al-Qaida, while the White House stuck by its position that the two had significant links.
Cheney told the CNBC network that there probably were things about Iraq's links to terrorists that the commission members did not learn during their 14-month investigation.
After hearing the vice president's comment, commission members said they would like to see any intelligence reports that Cheney is referring to.
"We would certainly welcome any information bearing on the issue of assistance or collaboration with al-Qaida by any government including Iraq," said commission member Richard Ben-Veniste. Commission chairman Thomas Kean and vice chairman Lee Hamilton made similar comments to The New York Times.
The Bush administration used the assertion of collaboration between al-Qaida and Saddam's regime as one of its reasons for invading Iraq.
Commission spokesman Al Felzenberg said the commission is not making another formal request for documents from the White House.
"We have made an extensive document request of the administration, and they have responded to our requests," said Felzenberg. The panel is saying, he added: "If the vice president or anybody else has any information on this subject that they would like the commission to examine, the commission would very much like to see it."
Regarding additional questioning of witnesses, Ben-Veniste said, "We are following up on interviews and other investigative leads at the same time we begin finalizing the factual accounts which will be contained in the final report."
"Following up with Dr. Rice and George Tenet are two obvious areas of interest."
The Los Angeles Times first reported the panel's desire for further questioning of Bush's national security adviser and the CIA director. The Times said Tenet, who leaves office in July, had agreed to be re-interviewed, and the commission might submit written questions to Rice.
Without addressing whether the commission wants to question Rice and Tenet again, Felzenberg said, "It is not unusual to go back to someone with more questions."
The commission has a July 26 deadline for completing its final report.
Should make for an interesting Sunday... 
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 In 2004, the Wall St. Journal noted:
the Commission heard Wednesday from Patrick Fitzgerald. The former Manhattan prosecutor was asked about his 1998 indictment against Osama bin Laden that asserted that al Qaeda had an "understanding" with Iraq that it would not "work against that government" and that "on certain projects, specifically including weapons development," they would "work cooperatively."Mr. Fitzgerald testified that "there was that relationship that went from opposing each other to not opposing each other to possibly working with each other." Is this the same federal prosecutor who indicted Vice President Cheney's aide I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby for perjury? If so, this creates a particularly interesting issue for Democrat partisans. In their zeal to tie Libby to Cheney to Bush to "Bush LIED," these partisans have already begun taking great pains to portray Fitzgerald as an honest, steadfast, "just the facts," prosecutor. And he probably is. However, if Fitzgerald is that kind of "just the facts" guy, and a year ago he tied Saddam to al Quaeda, then "the facts" tend to show that Bush was right to go to war after all.
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the G-man said:<P>However, if Fitzgerald is that kind of "just the facts" guy, and a year ago he tied Saddam to al Quaeda, then "the facts" tend to show that Bush was right to go to war after all.
If Bush went to war under the flag of WMD and there were no WMD, and the CIA doubted there was WMD, and this guy went to Africa to investigate claims that Saddam was buying yellowcake and said there weren't but Bush lied and said there were....come on G-man put the pieces together. Just because Bush is a republican doesn't mean you have to support him no matter what. You should support what is right, not what falls on party lines.
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r3x29yz4a said:
Quote:
the G-man said:<P>However, if Fitzgerald is that kind of "just the facts" guy, and a year ago he tied Saddam to al Quaeda, then "the facts" tend to show that Bush was right to go to war after all.
If Bush went to war under the flag of WMD and there were no WMD, and the CIA doubted there was WMD, and this guy went to Africa to investigate claims that Saddam was buying yellowcake and said there weren't but Bush lied and said there were....come on G-man put the pieces together. Just because Bush is a republican doesn't mean you have to support him no matter what. You should support what is right, not what falls on party lines.
Thank the lord some still have common sense! Thanks r3x29yz4a.
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The Saddam/Al-Qaeda ConnectionAlmost every responsible U.S. government body had long warned about Saddam’s links to al-Qaida terrorists. In 1998, for example, when the Clinton Justice Department indicted bin Laden, the writ read: “In addition, al-Qaida reached an understanding with the Government of Iraq that al-Qaida would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al-Qaida would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.”
Then in October 2002, George Tenet, the Clinton-appointed CIA director, warned the Senate in similar terms: “We have solid reporting of senior-level contacts between Iraq and al-Qaida going back a decade.” Seventy-seven senators apparently agreed — including a majority of Democrats — and cited just that connection a few days later as a cause to go to war against Saddam: ” … Whereas members of al-Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq.”
The bipartisan consensus about this unholy alliance was not based on intriguing but unconfirmed rumors of meetings between Saddam’s intelligence agents and al-Qaida operatives such as Sept. 11 hijacker Mohamed Atta. Nor did the senators or the president ever claim that Saddam himself planned the Sept. 11 attacks. Instead, the Justice Department, the Senate and two administrations were alarmed by terrorist groups like Ansar al-Islam, an al-Qaida affiliate that established bases in Iraqi Kurdistan.
More importantly, one of the masterminds of the 1993 attack on the World Trade Center, Abdul Rahman Yasin, fled to Baghdad to find sanctuary with Saddam after the attack. And after the U.S.’s successful war against the Taliban, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the present murderous al-Qaida leader in Iraq, reportedly escaped from Afghanistan to gain a reprieve from Saddam.
All of this is understandable since Saddam had a long history of promoting and sheltering anti-Western terrorists. That’s why both Abu Nidal and Abu Abbas — terrorist banes of the 1970s and 1980s — were in Baghdad prior to the U.S. invasion and why the families of West Bank suicide bombers were given $25,000 rewards by the Iraqi government.
Saddam worried little over the agendas of these diverse terrorist groups, only that they shared his own generic hatred of Western governments. This kind of support from leaders such as Saddam has proven crucial to radical, violent Islamicists’ efforts.
After Sept. 11, it became clear that these enemies can only resort to terrorism to weaken American resolve and gain concessions — and can’t even do that without the clandestine help of illegitimate regimes (from Saddam in Iraq to the Taliban in Afghanistan, the theocracy in Iran, Bashar Assad in Syria and others) who provide money and sanctuary while denying culpability.
Middle Eastern terrorists and tyrants feed on one another. The Saddams and Assads of the region — and to a less extent the Saudi royal family and the Mubarak dynasty — deflected popular anger over their own failures onto the United States by allowing terrorists to scapegoat the Americans.
Yet, for a quarter-century, oil, professed anti-communism and loud promises to “fight terror” earned various reprieves from the West for these dictatorships, who were deathly afraid that one day America might catch on and do something other than shoot a cruise missile at enemies while sternly lecturing “friends.”
That day came after Sept. 11. To end the old pathology, we took out the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, pressured the Syrians to leave Lebanon, encouraged Lebanese democracy, hectored the Egyptians about elections, told Libya’s Moammar Gaddafi to come clean about his nuclear plans, and risked oil supplies by jawboning the Persian Gulf monarchies to liberalize.
The theory behind all these messy and often caricatured efforts was not the desire for endless war — we removed by force only the two worst regimes, in Afghanistan and Iraq — but to allow Middle Easterners a third alternative between Islamic radicalism and secular dictatorship. No wonder that wherever there are elections in the Middle East — Afghanistan and Iraq — legitimate governments there have the moral authority and the desire to fight Islamic terrorism.
Americans can blame one another all we want over the cost in lives and treasure in Iraq. But the irony is that not long ago everyone from Bill Clinton to George Bush, senators, CIA directors and federal prosecutors all agreed that Saddam had offered assistance to al-Qaida, the organization that murdered 3,000 Americans. That was one of the many reasons we went into Iraq, why Zarqawi and ex-Baathists side-by-side now attack American soldiers — and why an elected Iraqi government is fighting with us.
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New Documents from Saddam Hussein's Archives Discuss Bin Laden, WMDs
Following are the ABC News Investigative Unit's summaries of Iraqi documents from Saddam Hussein's government, which were released by the U.S. government Wednesday.
The documents discuss Osama bin Laden, weapons of mass destruction, al Qaeda and more.
The full documents can be found on the U.S. Army Foreign Military Studies Office Web site: http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/products-docex.htm.
Note: Document titles were added by ABC News.
"Osama bin Laden and the Taliban"
Document dated Sept. 15, 2001
An Iraqi intelligence service document saying that their Afghani informant, who's only identified by a number, told them that the Afghani Consul Ahmed Dahastani claimed the following in front of him:
- That OBL and the Taliban are in contact with Iraq and that a group of Taliban and bin Laden group members visited Iraq.
- That the U.S. has proof the Iraqi government and "bin Laden's group" agreed to cooperate to attack targets inside America.
- That in case the Taliban and bin Laden's group turn out to be involved in "these destructive operations," the U.S. may strike Iraq and Afghanistan.
- That the Afghani consul heard about the issue of Iraq's relationship with "bin Laden's group" while he was in Iran.
At the end, the writer recommends informing "the committee of intentions" about the above-mentioned items.
Al Qaeda Presence in Iraq"
Document dated August 2002
A number of correspondences to check rumors that some members of al Qaeda organization have entered Iraq. Three letters say this information cannot be confirmed. The letter on page seven, however, says that information coming from "a trustworthy source" indicates that subjects who are interested in dealing with al Qaeda are in Iraq and have several passports.
The letter seems to be coming from or going to Trebil, a town on the Iraqi-Jordanian border. Follow up on the presence of those subjects is ordered, as well as comparison of their pictures with those of Jordanian subjects living in Iraq. (This may be referring to pictures of Abu Musaab al Zarqawi and another man on pages 4-6) The letter also says tourist areas, including hotels and rented apartments, should be searched.
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ABC News reports that more Saddam documents are coming out, and there is more evidence of his ties to Al Quaeda:
"Osama bin Laden Contact With Iraq"
A newly released prewar Iraqi document indicates that an official representative of Saddam Hussein's government met with Osama bin Laden in Sudan on February 19, 1995, after receiving approval from Saddam Hussein. Bin Laden asked that Iraq broadcast the lectures of Suleiman al Ouda, a radical Saudi preacher, and suggested "carrying out joint operations against foreign forces" in Saudi Arabia.
According to the document, Saddam's presidency was informed of the details of the meeting on March 4, 1995, and Saddam agreed to dedicate a program for them on the radio. The document states that further "development of the relationship and cooperation between the two parties to be left according to what's open [in the future] based on dialogue and agreement on other ways of cooperation." The Sudanese were informed about the agreement to dedicate the program on the radio.
The report then states that "Saudi opposition figure" bin Laden had to leave Sudan in July 1996 after it was accused of harboring terrorists. It says information indicated he was in Afghanistan. "The relationship with him is still through the Sudanese. We're currently working on activating this relationship through a new channel in light of his current location," it states.
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Now Fox is joining ABC in documenting the connections. The first installment of "The Saddam Dossier," Terror Links to Saddam's Inner Circle is online, and examines documents that connect Saddam’s Iraq with the Taliban.
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the G-man said:
Now Fox is joining ABC in documenting the connections.<P>The first installment of "The Saddam Dossier," <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199052,00.html">Terror Links to Saddam's Inner Circle</a> is online, and examines documents that connect Saddam’s Iraq with the Taliban.</p>
In tonight's episode, the Bush Administration's pot calls the kettle black and then throws some rocks at the old glass house.
I'd be much more willing to trust these guys if Rummsfeld wasn't involved.
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Incriminating pictures indeed. 
whomod said: I generally don't like it when people decide to play by the rules against people who don't play by the rules. It tends to put you immediately at a disadvantage and IMO is a sign of true weakness. This is true both in politics and on the internet." Our Friendly Neighborhood Ray-man said: "no, the doctor's right. besides, he has seniority."
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Indeed
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okay, now point to the picture where the U.S. person gave the bad guy the means to make chemical weapons and come to greater power.
Bow ties are coool.
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I'll do you one better.
I'll point to the picture the Doctor posted, the one where the President (FDR) gave the bad guy entire regions of Europe which he used to enslave millions, build up his military, point missiles at us and generally engage in the same sort of nasty business that the guy they'd defeated was working on.
Does that picture mean that the U.S. was forever prevented from standing up to the USSR once we figured out what a bastard Stalin was? Does that mean that Jack Kennedy was a hypocrite or somehow at fault for the Cuban missile crisis simply because his father was in the same administration as Roosevelt?
Similarly, those pictures of Clinton and Carter show U.S. presidents being photographed with Middle Eastern leaders who were known, or later discovered to be, "bad guys." One of whom, Arafat, was deeply involved in formenting Islamic terrorism.
Does the mere fact a member of the administration, or even the president himself, is photographed being cordial with another nation's leader, who is an asshole, mean the president is somehow complicit in that other leader's evil schemes?
By your logic, yes. By the real world's logic, no.
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Okay, G-man. First the photos; The Doctor's is obviously the big three of World War II. Te second looks to me like Jimmy & Rosalyne Carter with Mohammad Reza Palavi, Shah of Iran, and his wife Farrah. The Iran crises was precipitated by the exiled Shah's arrival in New York for treatment of the cancer that eventually killed him. We held him close to the bitter end. Clinton appears in neither picture.
Leave it to The Doctor to pull out that old BS about betrayel at Yalta. Do you wanna tell us how Alger Hiss was behind the commie plot to sell out America? Get a grip. The Soviets already occupied Eastern Europe. The war to dislodge them would have cost millions of lives and all concerned were weary of fighting. The betrayal at Yalta is a Republican myth to save the party of Taft from complete irrelavency at the end of the conflict.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." John Stuart Mill
America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilization in between. Oscar Wilde
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless dead.
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No one here but you brought up the alleged "Betrayal of Yalta."
My point, clearly noted above, was that Doc's photo demonstrated that an administration may be allied with, and photographed with, a world figure who later is revealed to be villainous. This, however, as noted above, does not justify that administration, or subsequent administrations, turning a blind eye to later villainry.
Nor does it, per se, "prove" said administration was complicit in that villainry.
Similar points were also made regarding the Clinton and Carter photos.
Instead of discussing connections we haven't made, any comment on the growing body of evidence of connections between Saddam and Al Quaeda?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
No one here but you brought up the alleged "Betrayal of Yalta."
My point, clearly noted above, was that Doc's photo demonstrated that an administration may be allied with, and photographed with, a world figure who later is revealed to be villainous. This, however, as noted above, does not justify that administration, or subsequent administrations, turning a blind eye to later villainry.
Nor does it, per se, "prove" said administration was complicit in that villainry.
Similar points were also made regarding the Clinton and Carter photos.
Instead of discussing connections we haven't made, any comment on the growing body of evidence of connections between Saddam and Al Quaeda?
Did your Iq take another drop, g-man? There is no photo of Clinton in the posts. As for Yalta, where do you think the photo was shot?
That growing body of evidence is really the rust inside your brain.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
I'll do you one better.
NO thank you, but NO.
Bow ties are coool.
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the G-man said:
Indeed
In the top picture, the guy in the middle, waving, between Hillary and Yassir Arafat is Bill Clinton
Are you not seeing the pic in your browser?
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