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Jason E. Perkins said:
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Wonder Boy said:
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Jason E. Perkins said:
I'll start here and respond in the way I would.

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Wonder Boy said:
I guess it's also not a statement of any significance that every "Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard" in America, far from being a center of peace, is a center of crime, drugs and violence.


No, it isn't. Is it a statement of any significance that there was a shooting last year on Washington Boulevard in Pembroke Pines? What happens on a street named after someone has absolutely nothing to do with what they did in their lifetime. I could name my dog Rush Limbaugh. If he bites someone it means I have an ill-tempered dog that needs training ASAP. That's it.




That's a silly answer.

Streets named Martin Luther King Jr Boulevard are named with a clear intent to invoke the person and writings of Martin Luther King Jr.

Naming your dog "Fluffy" or "Rush Limbaugh" clearly doesn't have anything resembling the same intent.


What?

A.) You skipped the part about Washington Blvd. I'll let it go, though.

B.) If I name my dog Rush Limbaugh, I have "a clear intent to invoke the person and writings of" Rush Limbaugh. That's obvious.

You're being silly.

And thus the point remains. What happens on any given Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard has nothing to do with the man himself. Nothing more than the dog, Rush Limbaugh, and the man himself.



A) Naming a street after Martin Luther King is not something the majority of Americans would push for. These streets clearly represent exclusively the black community, and Kings words and "Dream" of a "table of brotherhood". I've been abundantly clear, that this is unquestionably a more symbolic act than the naming of your average Washington Avenue.

That the black community allows these places to be the centers of crime and violence that they are ist to me, and I think many white Americans, quite telling.
Despite your spinning it otherwise.
It is clearly black Americans who named these King Boulevards, and it is clearly black Americans who allow them to be what they are, in their black neighborhoods.

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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I notice you've also not included my response to this post, where I answered the points you raised.

Yours is clearly a one-sided response, that ignores the counter-response to the issues raised, that I've already given.


And I responded to that response. Remember this?

But I'm not going to quibble over who responded to what. As I've said, I stopped responding because you cherry picked.



I haven't "cherry picked" what I've responded to in your posts, I've taken your points one by one and responded to them in order.
I don't know how you can say that, when I've made every effort to respond to each of your voluminous points. And I realize my answers haven't been short either, but it's been in an effort to be clear.
But even when I'm clear, you don't give me credit for my clarity, while also squeezing in your way-off-the-mark psychoanalysis, alleging I blame blacks and have a "White. Hot. Paranoia.", when I clearly am not closed off to all blacks, only those who are openly hostile to me. And even with those, I make every effort to be friendly and courteous.



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Jason E. Perkins said:

However, if you want a response to the statistics you last gave I'll give it to you in one shot.

In 2000, after the surge in black population in the 90's and long after the numbers you gave in your response were taken, 211 million people reported themselves as "White alone" which accounted for 75% of the U.S. population. Up to 35 million people--12% of the population-reported themselves as "Black only." That's roughly 6:1.

And again, that means that the numbers you gave were all less than they would have been by blind chance were race not involved at all.




I get the basic drift of your point, although it's not 100% clear.
I really am trying to understand and respect your point of view, despite your personal mischaracterizations of me.

As I understand your point to be above, you're saying that the statistical numbers of black and white aren't quite equal to how they identify themselves in racial census.

But I would still argue that the census is accurate, because it represents how individuals themselves, both black and white, identify themselves in the census.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
My repeated responses above make clear that I unquestionably don't mean "all blacks" are indoctrinated in this hostile victim/justified-retribution mindset. But that the prevalent message is put out there to all blacks in the U.S., that a large percentage reject that hostile/victim ideology, a large percentage buy into that hostile/victim ideology, and a smaller percentage not only buy into it but are moved to violence by that hostile ideology.

It's annoying that I've repeatedly said this, and that you've ignored my clarity on this point.


It's annoying that you've repeatedly ignored requests from myself and others to clarify when you mean some, most, or all. You feel it's okay to make grand sweeping statements, because we should simply know what you mean.

Sorry, I'm not a mind reader. Feel free to get angry because I'm asking you to be clear. Then go ahead and do whatever you feel delivers the right message.



No, what's really annoying is that I've repeatedly answered this question, and you ignore my point.

I said that there's no way to fully tabulate how many blacks reject the liberal victims/justified retribution mindset.
Or how many buy into it and have an open or hidden hostility toward whites.

Only the crimes of those who commit violence can be measured.

But this much is clear: the victimized/something owed mentality is out there every day, constantly sold to blacks in broadcast political discussions, music, black television and movies, comedy, etc.
The message that "we are victims" is constantly out there to every black American. To the point that even I, as a white male, can flip channels, listen to music, see it perpetuated in movies and hear that perception repeated in the breakroom or in the neighboring cubicles at work.

So... don't try to tell me it's my imagination. I see it in every conceivable form of entertainment, and even at work.

You say there's discrimination you've personally experienced, and "thoroughly researched".
And yet mock me as "White.Hot.Paranoid." for pointing out what is painfully obvious to even a casual observer of black popular culture.



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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I think the comments by local black and liberal politicians after the innocent verdict of the 4 police officers who beat Rodney King, and the way it led directly to riots in Los Angeles, makes my point quite nicely.

And the whole "free the L.A. Four" for the 4 black thugs who almost murdered white truck driver Reginald Denny, whose only crime was driving down the wrong street.

TIME magazine in this period had a cover-story on the nationwide reluctance of blacks on juries to convict a black suspect and put him in jail, no matter what the evidence.

There are similar political statements by leaders of other major cities nationwide, pandering to liberal black voters, surrounding similar incidents of suspects beaten or killed by police that erupted in riots.


Show me.



There was an incident in Chicago about a year after the 1992 L.A. riots surrounding Rodney King.

There have been multiple riots in Miami, in 1979, in 1990, and others I've forgotten. And in other major cities. It's hard to remember all of them.

All of them involved pandering by local politicians to the black community, that I think crossed a line and gave too much sympathy to black rioters.
Demanding justice is understandable. Rioting is quite another.

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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
The very calls from the black community for "compensation" for past racism, sheds light on the unrelenting anger and keeping alive spectres of past racism that have been gone since at least 1965.

As I said, such clinging to the past makes it impossible for healing between whites and blacks to occur.


Again, show me. Show me where "the black community" is asking for compensation. I would LOVE to see this. Or do you mean "some blacks" want reparations? And by "some blacks" I mean an extreme minority. I'm really not sure, and as I've said I'm not a mind reader.



It's been all over the news for years.

Okay, some blacks, sure, yes.
But it clearly reflects a widespread attitude among black americans of being owed something, and feeling a disproportionate lingering hostility about past discrimination that has not existed in over 40 years.

You could say that "only some" Americans fought in World War II (about 16 million, out of a then-population of about 140 million Americans).

You could say "only some" of Germans were Nazis or SS members. But it was still a widespread and influential movement.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:

You've said that more directly in previous topics, but your talk about crime and education statistics being misrepresented (which you just quoted at length from the previous topic, while conveniently omitting my previous response) clearly manifests that here.


What?



What you just said. That U.S. Justice Department statistics of arrests allegedly don't reflect the real numbers on black crime and white crime.

And the similar argument that SAT tests don't reflect black intelligence, because they're written in coded language that whites understand and blacks have a lesser knowledge of.

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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:

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Jason E. Perkins said:
I can show tell you many tales of white-on-black racism, from my personal life, from news stories, and I can even link to a few forums where white people are saying things about blacks that would make your hair stand on end. But I wouldn't, because it wouldn't prove anything more than that there are a few people who feel a certain way. It sure wouldn't say anything about an entire community.



So why mention it at all?


Ummm...that's my point. Why mention that there are incidents that have happened near your home? There's no reason.



You mentioned it as near your home, as if that had some personal significance, Jason.
I just made the point that the same can be said from my perspective.
Again, the larger point is that black-on-white race-based "hate-crimes" seem to occur in disproportionally high numbers, as compared to the reverse, at a ratio of 50-to-1.

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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I can also discuss personal incidents, where I was bullied on a daily basis by a black guy twice my size, where a group of blacks tricked me into a blind corner, and would have beat the shit out of me if I hadn't given up my tickets at a football game, where I had a potential black manager grill me in a way that he never would have a black applicant, black managers who were discriminatory on the job toward white employees, black co-workers who excluded myself and other white employees, despite our best efforts to include them; and on and on.

I have first hand seen many incidents of the expectation of racist treatment, where blacks have made a huge issue out of nothing, because that carry that hostile/victim ideology inside them, and wait for the opportunity to lash out at the slightest perceived racism.


So that's why you assume that blacks are a certain way in general. This makes so much more sense.



So despite that I've saidall along it's a percentage of blacks who are indoctrinated into this ubiquitous victim/justified-retribution message that is constantly pumped out to the black community, despite my clear interaction with black friends and co-workers (those who don't have the race-based hostile attitude problem). Despite all this I've said, of basically evaluating blacks as individuals and interacting with them on a case-by-case basis, and not being prejudicial toward blacks... you're labelling me as blindly prejudicial to all blacks.

In a parallel example, I've had bad experiences with women I've dated, but that hasn't turned me hostile to all women.

You made the point that you've seen and felt intimidation and discrimination from whites.
I simply made the point that I've had equally real and firsthand incidents of blacks discriminating against myself and other whites.
That's all. Beyond what you deceitfully try to twist it into.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I don't deny that true racism toward blacks occurs, but I think it is far more often a false spectre.


Based on?



Personal observation, and firsthand experience, at work and socially.

And from many incidents I've read about in the media as well. Such as that creepy looking black congresswoman, who was stopped by Capitol Hill security when she didn't wear her I.D. badge, for example.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
Have I ignored it? Or have I acknowledged that it does exist, but that the divisive attitude and ideology that is indoctrinated into a large percentage of the American black community, is as big a problem as incidents of true racism against blacks?


You continue to allude to the idea that blacks should get over it, stop feeling like victims, and move on so that America can move forward and we can stop being alienated. However, nowhere in any of these posts have you said that whites have to do anything. If you have, correct me with a link.



I think whites conceded quite a bit, with integrated schools and workplaces, and in declining scholastic standards and test scores, since integration began. I think I voice the opinion of many whites, that no matter what is conceded, blacks respond with hostility, and never feel it's enough.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I think that's clear enough. The indoctrinated victim mentality and hysterical cries of racism at every turn, are the cause of black alienation. And open-minded whites who are sympathetic to true racism, get tired of dealing with the hostility, to the point that we at times would rather avoid interacting with blacks, when we pick up the vibe of what their attitude toward whites is.


The open-minded whites?

Is that...supposed to include you?

You just said cops are right to look at black suspects more closely. You refute information that opposes your view as "liberal spin". But you're one of the open-minded white people who we should cater our mentalities and actions to?

To you?

No.



I'm more open minded than you give me credit for, and if I come across as abrasive here, it's because of your mocking condescension, and deliberate misrepresentation of my views, trying to label me as a racist, for simply giving both statistical facts and honest straightforward opinion, in an open discussion of racial tensions in the U.S.

I interact and socialize with blacks, I've even dated a black woman (as I said, a Jamaican lady, who surprisingly had a harsher opinion of american black attitudes than I do!)

But... by your account, I'm a racist. Right. Sure. Whatever.
And more than that, pitiable and psychologically damaged. Sure, Jason. You bet.

No character assassination or deliberate misrepresentation on your part, eh? None at all.
When you stoop to such a personal attack, you've clearly lost the debate.


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Jason E. Perkins said:

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Wonder Boy said:
I say this from articles I've read, as well as my own experience working with black co-workers.

Some jobs I work with blacks, and we get along and socialize, both at work and outside the office.
Others, where I get the clear signals of hostility, I remain friendly, but avoid interaction.

My experience with blacks on this issue is more 50/50 ratio of hostile mindset toward whites. Sometimes more hostile, sometimes less. Usually the more educated the environment (such as working for a healthcare company, with black nurses), the more friendly and less race-separated. The less educated (such as an insurance company mailroom, or an auto rental company) the more divided black and white are.



White. Hot. Fear.

I pity you. You're a victim of your own self-perpetuating paranoia.



See above, particularly about character assassination and deliberately misrepresenting me.

If I interact with blacks 50% or so of the time, when I don't get the "white people are the enemy" vibe, that means I'm friendly and socializing with with the percentage of black Americans who are open to white America.
And that I'm not afraid of blacks, just that I choose not to waste my time with the fucked up ones.

  • from Do Racists have lower IQ's...

    Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.

    EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.