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A "religion of peace," says President Bush about Islam. But investigative journalist Robert Spencer, in his new book " Onward Muslim Soldiers: How Jihad Still Threatens America and the West," argues that what we call "Islamic extremism" stems from a straightforward reading of the Koran and interpretative Islamic texts. Spencer argues that: There are millions of peaceful Muslims . . . but the fact is that radical Muslims are using core texts of Islam that are deeply rooted in Islamic theology, tradition, history and law to justify their actions, and those radical Muslims are able to recruit and motivate terrorists around the world by appealing to these core Islamic texts. . . . As far as the radical, violent elements of the religion go, they are very deeply rooted, and we are naive in the extreme if we don't recognize that and try to get moderate Muslims to acknowledge it so that real reform can take place. He notes that the Koran provides, for example, that: Muslims must present non-Muslims with the three choices of Sura 9:29 of the (Koran): conversion, submission with second-class status under Islamic rule, or death...This is a deeply rooted tradition in Islam. Islam is unique among religions in having a developed doctrine theology in law that mandates violence against non-believers.
Not all Muslims take it seriously, but the radicals do, and they are working to recruit and motivate terrorists. So . . . whenever anybody says we want to institute Sharia Islamic law in a country, they mean these laws. They do not provide for the equality of rights and dignity of non-Muslims in a Muslim society . . . (but) mandate just the opposite -- that non-Muslims are not to be given equality of rights, but denied various jobs because they're not allowed to hold authority over Muslims. He goes on to state: The only Koran that really matters is what's in Arabic, because as far as traditional Islamic theology goes, Allah . . . was speaking to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel, and the language is intrinsic, can't be separated from the message. The fact is that what's in Arabic is very clear . . . but in two opposite directions. What you have are very many verses of peace and tolerance, and also very many verses sanctioning and mandating violence against non-believers. . . .
You find many moderate Muslim spokesmen and American-Muslim advocates in this country, who quote you the peaceful and tolerant verses, and no reference to the violent verses. . . . When you read Islamic theologians themselves . . . you find they actually confront this problem directly. . . . Some of the most respected thinkers in Islamic history say that when you come upon these kinds of disagreements -- where you see peace in one place and violence in the other -- you have to go with what was revealed last, that cancels out what was revealed before. Unfortunately, for the moderates, the violent verses were revealed later and they cancel out the peaceful ones -- but you won't hear this from the American Muslim advocacy groups. . . . He concludes: What we need to see is a forthright acknowledgement of it and reform from moderate Muslims themselves, the same way that the Pope has apologized for the Crusades and Christianity at large . . . has repudiated the theology that gave rise to them. So we need to see . . . moderates on a large scale repudiating the theology that has led to violent jihad, which the radicals are using to justify their actions. Thoughts? Rebuttal?
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Do we have any Muslims around? I think it's kind of unfair to talk about Islam without any representatives of the faith.
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Just the fact that the Jihad is part of the religion makes me believe that no, it is not a religion of peace. Peaceful people might subscribe to the religion, but the religion itself is not one of peace.
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Are their any religions of peace?
Does anyone remember the crusades?
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A muslim friend told me once that Jihad refers to defending one's home against foreign aggressors.
Not a holy war against infidels as many believe.
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That's an interesting point, Rex.
I read a theory once that all religions go through a "growth" phase or something in which they are warlike and then, hopefully calm down. The proponent of the theory postulated that Christianity and Judaism had their phases already and Islam was in its now.
Of course, that doesn't explain the Moorish invasion of half of Europe....
In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
Thoughts?
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Quote:
rex said:
Are their any religions of peace?
Does anyone remember the crusades?
In the Torah, Jews are commanded to exterminate the evil nation of Amalek, which attacked us immediately after we left Egypt (this commandment is not applicable today because it's impossible to tell in this day and age who's a member of Amalek.) We were told to conquer the land of Israel and purge it of idolatry. There's even a whole chapter dedicated to the rules of war. Several of our holidays like Hannukah and Purim are dedicated to fighting for our survival or the survival of our faith - victories won through force of arms.
I think a better question to ask is - what does it mean to be a religion of peace?
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Quote:
r3x29yz4a said:
A muslim friend told me once that Jihad refers to defending one's home against foreign aggressors.
Not a holy war against infidels as many believe.
Are their certain rules to a jihad?
I remember seeing a show on the discovery channel saying the rules were:
You have to warn the person you're attacking.
You cannot attack innocents.
You cannot harm plants or animals.
Does anyone know if these are true or not?
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Quote:
the G-man said:
That's an interesting point, Rex.
I read a theory once that all religions go through a "growth" phase or something in which they are warlike and then, hopefully calm down. The proponent of the theory postulated that Christianity and Judaism had their phases already and Islam was in its now.
Of course, that doesn't explain the Moorish invasion of half of Europe....
In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
Thoughts?
Name one big world power back then that wasn't on a tear across the world seeking power and enslavement.
Remember the Catholic Spanish right after they kicked the Muslims out oppressed and enslaved the American Indians in the name of their god.
Condemn Muslims if you want, but you need to condemn the Christians too.
Even today. Would you call people who blow up abortion clinics, shoot abortion doctors or blow up Federal Buildings any different than Jihad Suicide Bombers?
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Quote:
rex said:
Are their certain rules to a jihad?
I remember seeing a show on the discovery channel saying the rules were:
You have to warn the person you're attacking.
You cannot attack innocents.
You cannot harm plants or animals.
Does anyone know if these are true or not?
These sound somewhat similar to the rules of war in the Torah I mentioned earlier.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
I see some truth in that. The difference is the cusaders were violating scripture, there is no place in Scripture that prescribes death for all non believers today.
Putting the "fun" back in Fundamentalist Christian Dogma.
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Quote:
wannabuyamonkey said:
Quote:
In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
I see some truth in that. The difference is the cusaders were violating scripture, there is no place in Scripture that prescribes death for all non believers today.
Read the Patriot Act
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Islam is a religion that will not rest until it sees the destruction.......let me say it again THE DESTRUCTION of all non-muslims.....specifically christians and especially jews.
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PJP said:
Islam is a religion that will not rest until it sees the destruction.......let me say it again THE DESTRUCTION of all non-muslims.....specifically christians and especially jews.
Actually History has shown Christian to be much more oppressive towards Jews.
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Quote:
the G-man said:
That's an interesting point, Rex.
I read a theory once that all religions go through a "growth" phase or something in which they are warlike and then, hopefully calm down. The proponent of the theory postulated that Christianity and Judaism had their phases already and Islam was in its now.
Of course, that doesn't explain the Moorish invasion of half of Europe....
In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
Thoughts?
good point, also more or less historical fact.
History shows that Islam is indeed not a peaceful religion. But I think that it is an unfair assumption to make.
I believe this becaise those wars of old had human architects behind them. Naturally these people focused on the aggressive parts of the Koran, and not on the peace teaching parts.
The same goes for christianity methinks. There are also parts of the bible which preach that violence can be acceptable
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Quote:
rex said:
Are their any religions of peace?
Does anyone remember the crusades?
Buddhism?
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
Uschi - 2
Old Men - 0
"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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Quote:
the G-man said:
In fact, others postulate that the violent side of Christianity, ie, the crusades was a direct defensive response to a threat posed by violent Islamic expansionism across that section of the globe.
From the old midieval documents I read in history class it looked like the knights were sent of crusades to get them out of Europe. They were uncontrolable thugs. With the vikings no longer attacking, the knights began to terrorize other kingdoms. The crusades, from my understanding/interpretation were to ship off the bad boys once they were unwanted dangers to society.
Old men, fear me! You will shatter under my ruthless apathetic assault!
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"I am convinced that this world is of no importance, and that the only people who care about dates are imbeciles and Spanish teachers." -- Jean Arp, 1921
"If Jesus came back and saw what people are doing in his name, he would never never stop throwing up." - Max von Sydow, "Hannah and Her Sisters"
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But the two aren't mutually exclusive.
It's sort of like "the Dirty Dozen."
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Well sure, the expansion of the Arab Islamics was the reason given to the Crusaders and there was definately some religous/political importance in the decision, however it was known to be a pointless death-mission and they sent the knights off anyways. From the documents we read for the history class I took it seemed like everyone other than people working with the Pope thought it was just to get rid of the brutes.
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Those were the original objectives until Islam stepped things up and more soldiers who took religion a bit more seriously got involved. After the power play, it really did become a war based on religion in the sense that people who were fighting actually believed it that way.
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In light of the Islamic riots over the Newsweek article, and some of the comments on that thread, I thought it might be time to revisit some of the questions posed by the tenents of Islam and whether or not we are hampered by a "PC" attitude to same. Columnist Neal Boortz seems to think so: IS IT JUST ME .or are some of the rest of you getting just a little bit tired of all of the butt kissing we're delivering to disgruntled Muslims out there?
This whole flap over the faulty Newsweek story is starting to get under several different patches of my skin.
Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmad [has stated] that we need to work harder at understanding the sensitivities of the Islamic people. He says "The apology and retraction are not enough. "They (Newsweek) should understand the sentiments of Muslims and think 101 times before publishing news which hurt feelings of Muslims."
I getting just a bit beyond the point where I'm all bent out of shape trying to understand Islamic sensitivities. If there is something about your religion that should make me feel badly about poor Muslims getting their feelings hurt, you had better get it out there on the table now.
All I see is a religion that seems to take great pleasure in passing condemnations and "death sentences" on various people around the world for all sorts of meaningless infractions of some great system of Islamic law.
I'm just not going to get all worked up worrying about the sensitivities of devotees of a religion that will stone a woman to death for adultery, while letting the man go unpunished.
Sensitivity would not be the word to describe how I feel about a religion that is in some way involved in more than 95% of the actual shooting conflicts and wars around the world.
Muslims shoot school children in the back! Remember Chechnya? They brag about bombs in schools in Israel! Tell me again about how I need to be sensitive?
The daughter of a devout Muslim gets violently raped. The devout Muslim takes a knife and, in front of the entire family, cuts his daughter's throat because she has dishonored her family .... by being a rape victim. Yeah, sport. Let me just pour out my sensitivities to this practitioner of the religion of peace.
There's a school on fire outside Riyadh. It's a girls school. The girls are trying to escape! But wait! Their faces aren't covered! It's the Islamic defenders of the faith to the rescue! They block the doors to keep the young Muslim girls from escaping ... from a burning building. The dignity of the great and wonderful religion of peace must be protected, even if young women burn to death! Yeah ... my respect for your sensitivities is on the way.
Those insurgents who are killing innocent civilians in Iraq? The suicide bombers in their cars and trucks? Haven't you heard? Most of them are from Saudi Arabia. They're crossing borders to kill innocent women and children because they don't like the idea of people being able to chose those who will rule them. I'm feeling so sensitive to that.
Tell you what: When you stop killing your own daughters; when you stop trying to lock young girls into burning buildings; when you eschew shooting school children in the back; and when I can look in a newspaper and read that Muslims are NOT involved in one way or another in revolts, insurrections and hot wars around the world --- and when you're not working so hard to kill American civilians --- and when you start to show some tolerance and respect for the world's other religions .. then maybe I'll feel a bit more worm and fuzzy toward your incredible religion of peace.
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Quote:
PJP said:
If an American commits an act of terror whether its here (Mcvie, Rudolph) or overseas our whole counrty our whole society condemns them from top to bottom .....especially the media. When an arab commits an act of terror he may or may not be condemned by some arab governments but I can gauradamntee you they aren't sincere.....deep down they are all high fving each other and screaming and dancing in the streets. They are barbarians and the sooner people realize this the sooner we can start whuppin all tehir asses and bring them into line.....those dirty motherfuckers.
The arab community does nothing internally to stop terror....and more than likely they support and fund it whenever they can. So Yes I blame the entire arab community without remorse. They want sympathy start fucking killing terrorists and hunting them down.
Interesting point
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Quote:
the G-man said:
In light of the Islamic riots over the Newsweek article, and some of the comments on that thread, I thought it might be time to revisit some of the questions posed by the tenents of Islam and whether or not we are hampered by a "PC" attitude to same.
Columnist Neal Boortz seems to think so:
IS IT JUST ME .or are some of the rest of you getting just a little bit tired of all of the butt kissing we're delivering to disgruntled Muslims out there?
This whole flap over the faulty Newsweek story is starting to get under several different patches of my skin.
Pakistani Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmad [has stated] that we need to work harder at understanding the sensitivities of the Islamic people. He says "The apology and retraction are not enough. "They (Newsweek) should understand the sentiments of Muslims and think 101 times before publishing news which hurt feelings of Muslims."
I getting just a bit beyond the point where I'm all bent out of shape trying to understand Islamic sensitivities. If there is something about your religion that should make me feel badly about poor Muslims getting their feelings hurt, you had better get it out there on the table now.
All I see is a religion that seems to take great pleasure in passing condemnations and "death sentences" on various people around the world for all sorts of meaningless infractions of some great system of Islamic law.
I'm just not going to get all worked up worrying about the sensitivities of devotees of a religion that will stone a woman to death for adultery, while letting the man go unpunished.
Sensitivity would not be the word to describe how I feel about a religion that is in some way involved in more than 95% of the actual shooting conflicts and wars around the world.
Muslims shoot school children in the back! Remember Chechnya? They brag about bombs in schools in Israel! Tell me again about how I need to be sensitive?
The daughter of a devout Muslim gets violently raped. The devout Muslim takes a knife and, in front of the entire family, cuts his daughter's throat because she has dishonored her family .... by being a rape victim. Yeah, sport. Let me just pour out my sensitivities to this practitioner of the religion of peace.
There's a school on fire outside Riyadh. It's a girls school. The girls are trying to escape! But wait! Their faces aren't covered! It's the Islamic defenders of the faith to the rescue! They block the doors to keep the young Muslim girls from escaping ... from a burning building. The dignity of the great and wonderful religion of peace must be protected, even if young women burn to death! Yeah ... my respect for your sensitivities is on the way.
Those insurgents who are killing innocent civilians in Iraq? The suicide bombers in their cars and trucks? Haven't you heard? Most of them are from Saudi Arabia. They're crossing borders to kill innocent women and children because they don't like the idea of people being able to chose those who will rule them. I'm feeling so sensitive to that.
Tell you what: When you stop killing your own daughters; when you stop trying to lock young girls into burning buildings; when you eschew shooting school children in the back; and when I can look in a newspaper and read that Muslims are NOT involved in one way or another in revolts, insurrections and hot wars around the world --- and when you're not working so hard to kill American civilians --- and when you start to show some tolerance and respect for the world's other religions .. then maybe I'll feel a bit more worm and fuzzy toward your incredible religion of peace.
 Wow.
I'm both impressed and saddened at the same time.
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Those people, I think, are trying to put a lie to the exemplary lives led by many muslims, it's sad 
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It's interesting how a good deal of what I'm reading here is what people say Islam says it stands for, and little about what Islam itself actually says it stands for.
This is why I think it's unfair to have a discussion about Islam without any Muslims. After all, for every other discussion we've had around here, we've had representatives of a certain POV to speak for their side.
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Quote:
rex said:
Are their any religions of peace?
Does anyone remember the crusades?
No, and that includes modern-day Christianity.
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
It's interesting how a good deal of what I'm reading here is what people say Islam says it stands for, and little about what Islam itself actually says it stands for.
This is why I think it's unfair to have a discussion about Islam without any Muslims. After all, for every other discussion we've had around here, we've had representatives of a certain POV to speak for their side.
I'll speak for the Muslims. *trying to keep a straight face*
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Quote:
PJP said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
It's interesting how a good deal of what I'm reading here is what people say Islam says it stands for, and little about what Islam itself actually says it stands for.
This is why I think it's unfair to have a discussion about Islam without any Muslims. After all, for every other discussion we've had around here, we've had representatives of a certain POV to speak for their side.
I'll speak for the Muslims. *trying to keep a straight face*
I have read the Koran twice and I am currenly reading through it for a third time. There are passages in the book that leave little hope that relationships between Jews and Muslims can be anything other than strained.
Darknight613 is a Jewish man and yet he has it in him to seek an understanding of a religion which has tenets that are contrary to his own beliefs.
If there were more people like him representing world religions and less willfully ignorant people, such as yourself, who go on to use their ignorance as a platform for spreading prejudice, then the world would be a better place.
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Quote:
backwards7 said:
Quote:
PJP said:
Quote:
Darknight613 said:
It's interesting how a good deal of what I'm reading here is what people say Islam says it stands for, and little about what Islam itself actually says it stands for.
This is why I think it's unfair to have a discussion about Islam without any Muslims. After all, for every other discussion we've had around here, we've had representatives of a certain POV to speak for their side.
I'll speak for the Muslims. *trying to keep a straight face*
I have read the Koran twice and I am currenly reading through it for a third time. There are passages in the book that leave little hope that relationships between Jews and Muslims can be anything other than strained.
Darknight613 is a Jewish man and yet he has it in him to seek an understanding of a religion which has tenets that are contrary to his own beliefs.
If there were more people like him representing world religions and less willfully ignorant people, such as yourself, who go on to use their ignorance as a platform for spreading prejudice, then the world would be a better place.
Douchebag. Yes you backwards. you're a fucking moron. always have been. If you and dk and whoever else you want to pick went over to any country with a muslim majority.....really went into the heart of the country, not just a major city or a tourist attraction like Cairo or Constantinople....they would slice your little bitch bodies up and laugh about it. Then they would talk about peace. You dickless son of a bitch. I haven't hit another man in awhile but I'd be willing to make an exception for you bitch. Have a nice day! 
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Quote:
backwards7 said:
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PJP said:
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Darknight613 said:
It's interesting how a good deal of what I'm reading here is what people say Islam says it stands for, and little about what Islam itself actually says it stands for.
This is why I think it's unfair to have a discussion about Islam without any Muslims. After all, for every other discussion we've had around here, we've had representatives of a certain POV to speak for their side.
I'll speak for the Muslims. *trying to keep a straight face*
I have read the Koran twice and I am currenly reading through it for a third time. There are passages in the book that leave little hope that relationships between Jews and Muslims can be anything other than strained.
Darknight613 is a Jewish man and yet he has it in him to seek an understanding of a religion which has tenets that are contrary to his own beliefs.
If there were more people like him representing world religions and less willfully ignorant people, such as yourself, who go on to use their ignorance as a platform for spreading prejudice, then the world would be a better place.
oh and I gaurantee you, you haven't read shit. Read the koran twice my ass. you ignorant fuck. 
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PJP said:
oh and I gaurantee you, you haven't read shit. Read the koran twice my ass. you ignorant fuck.
Have you? Or have you just managed to catch the media freindly quotes that fly around the American press?
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Not all muslims are violent, I agree.
But again, as PJP commented, a great number of muslims worldwide are inspired to violence directly by Koran scripture, chapter and verse.
Much as those hostile to Christianity and Judaism try to paint these two far more peaceful religions with the same brush as Islam, in point of fact Islam at its core tells its followers to expand by conquest, and have all non-muslims convert or be put to the sword.
Christianity in its first few hundred years spread peacefully across the Roman empire and the rest of Europe, despite persecution.
Islam, beginning in the 7th century, immediately spread by war and conquest, and slaughter of non-believers, wiping out Christian communities in North Africa and the Middle East.
And then Islamic armies pushed into Spain, Portugal, Italy, and Southern France, before the Christians finally, with their backs to the wall, pushed them out of Europe.
MAP here, Islamic expansion, 632-750 A.D., note the portions expanding into Europe. Note also that all of North Africa was also previously Christian.
At the time Columbus was discovering America, the Ottoman Turks had invaded deep into central Europe, and were finally turned back at the gates of Vienna.
Ottoman Empire expansion, 1359-1683, MAP here
And later began the Crusades to take back what had also previously been Christian territory, in what is now Israel and Lebanon, after repeated harassments of Christians in the birthplace of Christianity.
Much that's been discussed in this topic was explored in a previous topic:
Islamic ignorance
http://www.robkamphausen.com/Number=206064
In the present day, much of the murderous rhetoric of al Qaida, Wahabists, and other muslim radicals is not a bastardization of the Koran to rationalize war (as those who try to downplay or rationalize Muslim violence allege), it is exact scripture, chapter and verse, from the Koran.
While there are a significant percentage of Muslims worldwide pushing to focus on more peaceful elements within the Koran, to create more rights for women, end violence toward women, focus on the peaceful sections of the Koran to limit muslim political violence, the simple fact is that ALL this violence is clearly endorsed in the Koran !
( Some of those Koran passages are transcribed in the above prior topic.)
As I pointed out in an article from TIME magazine that focused on violent muslim extremism, where TIME asked the question: "Is Saudi Arabia our friend or our enemy?", it is pointed out that Wahabist missionaries sent from Saudi Arabia to all points across the globe, are the focal point of islamic violence and terrorism everywhere they go.
From the Phillipines to Indonesia to India to Pakistan to Chechnya, to the West Bank and Gaza to Algeria and elsewhere.
And similarly, Islamic immigration to Europe and North America is the focal point of violence toward Jews, desecration of Synagogues and Jewish graveyards, and increased violence toward women.
I posted considerable documentation of all these violent trends that follow Islamic missions and immigration worldwide.
But again, even in the heart of Islam, in Saudi Arabia, 50% of Arabs surveyed say they detest the repressive Sharia laws (strictly enforced Koran teachings) in Saudi Arabia, and would like these laws abolished.
And I point that out because I don't wish to paint an overly negative picture of those who want to reform Islam.
But it is a simple fact that the Koran does teach these violent practices (toward women, toward non-muslims, toward any muslims who deviate from the "true" teachings of Islam).
And it is a fact that the number of muslims who have this violently bigoted hostility toward those who don't believe what they believe, and quote the Koran to defend their violence, chapter and verse, are the majority, and reformers are a minority.
It is not misinterpretation of the Koran that teaches violence, it is reading of the Koran in its exact context.
And that creates a fertile ground for terrorist recruits.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:.
And began the Crusades to take back what had also been Christian territory in what is now Israel and Lebanon, after repeated harassments of Christians in the birthplace of Chrisatianity.
Just a question. Do you think this is something Jesus would have endorsed himself?
And yes, Christianity spread peacefully for a time. The church and Christianity are two very different things.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:.
And began the Crusades to take back what had also been Christian territory in what is now Israel and Lebanon, after repeated harassments of Christians in the birthplace of Chrisatianity.
Just a question. Do you think this is something Jesus would have endorsed himself?
And yes, Christianity spread peacefully for a time. The church and Christianity are two very different things.
Jesus said "those who live by the sword will die by the sword"
and
"Love your enemies and pray for your enemies, bless those that curse you".
But Jesus also allowed for those who serve in the military to defend their homeland, their homes and their families.
I already said in the other topic that the excesses of the Crusades were not scriptural.
But pushing the invaders out of Europe, and then taking the battle home to the invaders, is not necessarily non-scriptural. Although as I said, the excesses of the Crusaders are clearly not scriptural.
I certainly don't fault Christians for driving muslims out of Europe, and wanting to insure that they were not invaded again.
Biblical or non-Biblical, the Europeans had that right.
- from Do Racists have lower IQ's...
Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.
EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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I asked this earlier in the thread, and I'm going to ask it again: what does it mean to be a religion of peace?
For example, in the movie "Hero," the King of Qin wants to put an end to the constant war between the Seven Kingdoms of China and unite them as one unified country - and to do that, he intends to conquer them. He wages war in the name of peace, but does that make him a man of peace?
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Something else to keep in mind (and this is something I need to find out a LOT more about):
Islam has an oral law called "The Hadith," which as far as I can tell, seems to have equal prominence as the Koran, and contains among other things a series of moral laws.
In Judaism, we have an oral law called The Talmud. the Torah is the guideline, and The Talumd is where we get the actual instructions on how to practice Judaism. The Talmud has equal importance to the Torah, and to go by the Torah literally without the Talmud is not considered to be true Judaism. The Talmud also explains and qualifies some of what's in the Torah, and tempers some of the harsher commandments.
Now, this is just a guess on my part, because I have no idea of what's actually in the Hadith. But it may be possible that the Hadith may have laws and rules that temper the warlike message of The Koran, and many of the hardcore Islamic terrorist fanatics are ignoring the Hadith. I don't know this for sure, and I'm looking into it so that I hopefully will know.
This is why I think a discussion like this needs to be conducted with someone who is actually Muslim who can explain the Hadith and cue us in on stuff like this.
"Well when I talk to people I don't have to worry about spelling." - wannabuyamonkey
"If Schumacher’s last effort was the final nail in the coffin then Year One would’ve been the crazy guy who stormed the graveyard, dug up the coffin and put a bullet through the franchise’s corpse just to make sure." -- From a review of Darren Aronofsky & Frank Miller's "Batman: Year One" script
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
But Jesus also allowed for those who serve in the military to defend their homeland, their homes and their families.
Did he really? Are you sure of that? What did he have to say on the issue of Roman control of Isreal?
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Quote:
Darknight613 said:
Something else to keep in mind (and this is something I need to find out a LOT more about):
Islam has an oral law called "The Hadith," which as far as I can tell, seems to have equal prominence as the Koran, and contains among other things a series of moral laws.
In Judaism, we have an oral law called The Talmud. the Torah is the guideline, and The Talumd is where we get the actual instructions on how to practice Judaism. The Talmud has equal importance to the Torah, and to go by the Torah literally without the Talmud is not considered to be true Judaism. The Talmud also explains and qualifies some of what's in the Torah, and tempers some of the harsher commandments.
Now, this is just a guess on my part, because I have no idea of what's actually in the Hadith. But it may be possible that the Hadith may have laws and rules that temper the warlike message of The Koran, and many of the hardcore Islamic terrorist fanatics are ignoring the Hadith. I don't know this for sure, and I'm looking into it so that I hopefully will know.
This is why I think a discussion like this needs to be conducted with someone who is actually Muslim who can explain the Hadith and cue us in on stuff like this.
Muhamed will gladly answer any questions you have.
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Quote:
klinton said:
Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
But Jesus also allowed for those who serve in the military to defend their homeland, their homes and their families.
Did he really? Are you sure of that? What did he have to say on the issue of Roman control of Israel?
I can't recall the precise verse, but there is a verse in the New Testament that allows for service in war for one's country.
Regarding what Jesus thought of Roman control of Israel, the conflict between Jesus and the Hebrew leadership that led to his false accusation of citing rebellion and Jesus' crucifixion, was that Jews were expecting a political/military leader, to lead Israel back to independence as a sovereign nation, out from Roman occupation.
But Jesus was always clear that his was a spiritual kingdom, and never had any inclination toward a rebellion, despite what he was accused of.
As this verse from MARK 12: verses 13-17makes clear:
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13 Later they [Jewish political leaders] sent some of the Pharisees and Herodians to catch him [Jesus] in his words. [i.e., trick him into saying something that could be interpreted as rebellious against Rome and get him arrested.]
14 They came to him and said, "Teacher, we know you are a man of integrity. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. But you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?
15 Should we or shouldn't we ?"
But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. "Why are you trying to trap me?" he asked. "Bring me a denarius (a Roman coin) and let me look at it."
16 They brought the coin and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's", they replied.
17 Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
Meaning give your taxes to the state, your obedience to government. And give reverence to God in spiritual matters.
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Quote:
Wonder Boy said:
I can't recall the precise verse, but there is a verse in the New Testament that allows for service in war for one's country.
How about the general wording of this verse, or the context in which it was supposedly delivered.
As to the rest of your post, it rather makes my point for me. He not only didn't encourage rebellion against the Romans, he decryed any such action passionately. If the crusades were 'Christian' there must be some sort of precendent from Christ, no? Something he said that inspired thier actions in the first place.
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