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the G-man said:
Quote:

r3x29yz4a said:I can't see as how Kennedy's actions then reflect the debate on Iraq. The man had just lost two of his brothers to assassination in the six years prior, which doesn't excuse him granted but it does add insight into how and why he could've frozen in the face of a traumatic event. Its criminal negligence, not murder.

As for the statements in the release the guy was bitching about, well every elected official makes themselves seem like an underdog.




Come on, Ray, even you have to admit that it was insane of Kennedy to use his anti-semetic, bootlegging, abusive, father as an example of moral courage.



Kennedy, like pretty much anyone, looks at their parents through rose colored glasses.


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I don't know about that. For example, Bill Clinton (to use a democrat so you can't accuse this of being partisan) has never used his father as a testament to anything since it was well known his father was an abusive drunk.

Kennedy, however, still lives in that arrogant fantasy world where his father was a great man who didn't bootleg, beat his wife, lobotomize his daughter (for wanting to marry a jew, as I recall), etc.

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r3x29yz4a said:
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Captain Sammitch said:
Way to address the topic at hand DeadEf- I mean ray!



I did address the confrontation of public officials. As for Chappaquiddick, I can't see as how Kennedy's actions then reflect the debate on Iraq. The man had just lost two of his brothers to assassination in the six years prior, which doesn't excuse him granted but it does add insight into how and why he could've frozen in the face of a traumatic event. Its criminal negligence, not murder.

As for the statements in the release the guy was bitching about, well every elected official makes themselves seem like an underdog.




I basically just wanted an opening to accuse you of being DeadEffie.


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Captain Sammitch: always addressing the issue at hand.


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jafabian said:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, on Monday launched a withering election-year attack on President Bush's domestic agenda and again blasted him over his handling of Iraq.

"Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam," Kennedy declared in a speech at the Brookings Institution, a think tank.




The Boston Globe's Jeff Jacoby makes an excellent point about Kennedy's claim:

    Edward Kennedy likes to label Iraq "George Bush's Vietnam," as he did last week when he introduced legislation to give Congress the final say on troop levels in Iraq.

    Bush played no role in the fall of South Vietnam and Cambodia to the Communists in 1975, of course. But Kennedy did. He helped lead the congressional drive to cut off financial aid to the pro-American governments in Saigon and Phnom Penh, brushing aside President Gerald Ford's warning that "the horror and the tragedy that we see on television" would only grow worse if America deserted its allies.

    But Kennedy and the Democrats spurned Ford, and the result was unspeakable agony--Cambodia's killing fields, Vietnam's re-education camps, waves of "boat people" hurling themselves into the sea. Having seen the results of US abandonment in Indochina, how can Kennedy advocate the same policy in Iraq?

    Ford, a decent man, couldn't imagine deliberately abandoning a friend in dire straits. Kennedy, it seems, isn't so inhibited.


So maybe Iraq is Kennedy's second Vietnam?

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http://www.mrc.org/biasalert/2009/20090720050917.aspx

 Quote:
While the big liberal media usually find it hard to skip any news related to the Kennedy family, ABC, CBS and NBC breathed not a word about Saturday’s 40th anniversary of Chappaquiddick. On the night of July 18, 1969, Senator Edward Kennedy left a party with 28-year-old Mary Jo Kopechne and later drove off a bridge. Kennedy left the scene with Kopechne still in the submerged vehicle; he did not call the police until the following morning.

The Saturday and Sunday New York Times and Washington Post also had nothing about Chappaquiddick. Several newspapers did carry a brief, if inadvertent, mention, since on Saturday the Associated Press made it the day’s “Highlight in History” in their re-cap of big news events that happened on a July 18, beating out the start of the Great Fire of Rome in A.D. 64 and the death of naval hero John Paul Jones in 1792.

But it wasn’t a complete blackout. The new Newsweek (cover date, July 27) features Ted Kennedy on the cover, touting a lengthy essay the Senator wrote in favor of universal health care. Inside the magazine, editor Jon Meacham touted Kennedy as a man whose name “will never slip unremembered into the mists of history,” but talks about Chappaquiddick as a great flaw. “Kennedy's life is more compelling, and more instructive, if it is seen not as the inevitable unfolding of the destiny of a man devoted to public service but as the story of a search for redemption,” Meacham argued.

And over at NPR’s “Political Junkie” blog, Political Editor Ken Rudin wrote Friday about the Chappaquiddick anniversary. He effusively began: “There is no one currently serving in the U.S. Senate who is as respected as Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts. Despite his unabashed liberalism, he is revered by Republicans as well, for his intelligence, decency and willingness to work across the aisle.”

But after receiving a lot of “ugly” mail from NPR readers over the weekend, Rudin on Monday felt the need to justify his noting of the anniversary: “Chappaquiddick happened. Whatever Kennedy has accomplished in his latter years — and he became a true giant in the Senate — it was a signficant blot on his record. At the time, it said volumes about his maturity and judgment. More significantly, it cost a young woman her life. It doesn't erase what he has done since. But it's part of the record.”

As my colleague Brent Baker noted, ABC and NBC had no problem promoting Kennedy’s Newsweek health care essay in their Sunday night newscasts. Yet even with Kennedy inserting himself into the weekend’s news cycle, the networks — and much of the rest of the press — chose to remain silent about the anniversary of a scandal thought almost certainly would have driven any other politician from office.

Here’s more of how Newsweek’s Meacham addressed Chappaquiddick as part of Kennedy’s legacy:

In the sentiment of the moment — Ted Kennedy is dying, and the subject of his essay for us, health care, is his last great battle — we do him, and ourselves, a kind of disservice if we smooth over the rougher elements of his long story. Forty years ago to the day that we closed this essay, Kennedy drove off a bridge at Chappaquiddick in the darkness, crashing into the water and leaving his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, behind as he swam to the surface and left the scene. He did not report the accident until morning; only then was her body found. (When I was growing up in the South, Kennedy and Tip O'Neill were familiar Republican targets, and I remember a bumper sticker that read MORE PEOPLE HAVE DIED IN TED KENNEDY'S CAR THAN AT THREE MILE ISLAND. Not exactly subtle, but there we are.)

Kennedy's life is more compelling, and more instructive, if it is seen not as the inevitable unfolding of the destiny of a man devoted to public service but as the story of a search for redemption. He was only 36 when RFK was assassinated, and 37 when he crashed at Chappaquiddick. His days of irresponsibility lasted for two decades more. Into the early 1990s he embodied the vices of the Kennedy clan more than the virtues, drinking and womanizing to such a degree that he delivered a speech at the school named for his brother at Harvard acknowledging his personal shortcomings and promising to address them.

It is fair, then, to note that when Kennedy calls health-care reform "the cause of my life," he is talking about a life that is hardly a model of sobriety and statesmanship. The important thing, though, is that it is a life that has included the sober and the statesmanlike. The complexity of Kennedy's legacy — the good and the bad, the political achievements and the personal disasters — makes him an accessible, human figure, and a strangely inspirational one. For if Ted Kennedy can successfully battle demons and drink, conquering selfishness just enough to work through the decades for causes other than the satisfaction of his own appetites, then the rest of us can, too....

Over on NPR’s “Political Junkie” blog on Friday, Ken Rudin approached the issue by first touting how Kennedy is “revered” by senators of both parties, but even that was apparently not enough to satisfy NPR readers. Here’s an excerpt of his blog on Friday, followed by his Monday update about the “ugly” mail he received over the weekend:

There is no one currently serving in the U.S. Senate who is as respected as Edward Kennedy of Massachusetts. Despite his unabashed liberalism, he is revered by Republicans as well, for his intelligence, decency and willingness to work across the aisle.

The discovery that he has brain cancer, and is seriously ill, has added to the depth of feelings about Ted.

We do not know how much longer we are going to have him. Strangely, even as we lost Jack at such a young age, and Bobby even younger, the thought of losing Ted Kennedy, even at 77, seems way too soon.

Needless to say, those feelings of respect and reverence were not always there. And they certainly weren't there 40 years ago tomorrow — July 18, 1969.

On that Friday night, a car driven by Kennedy went over the Dike Bridge off Chappaquiddick Island, on Martha's Vineyard, Mass. The passenger in the car, a 28-year old woman from New Jersey named Mary Jo Kopechne, drowned (or died from asphyxiation). Ted — Teddy then — escaped from the car, tried to save Kopechne in vain, swam to shore, walked back to the cottage where he was staying, and conferred with some aides, including his cousin, Joseph Gargan. They went back to the scene of the accident to try and rescue Kopechne, but failed....

There is a wincing in my face as I type this. Kennedy himself may be close to the end, and to remind readers of this incident now may seem ghoulish and cruel.

But it's an incident that happened. And it was significant. It was the reason he was unseated as Senate Majority Whip in 1971 — by West Virginia's Robert Byrd — and it played a major role in his failure to win the Democratic presidential nomination in 1980....

For the longest time, Chappaquiddick was a metaphor for all that was wrong with Ted Kennedy. He was a playboy. A lightweight. He got to the Senate in 1962 because he was the president's brother, and moved up as a potential leader — and potential president — for the same reason.

But after the accident, after his humbling loss to Byrd and defeat at the hands of President Jimmy Carter in 1980, after a decade of skirt chasing (much of the time with then-fellow bachelor Chris Dodd), and after a 1991 incident in Florida — when he went to a bar with his son (Patrick Kennedy) and nephew (William Kennedy Smith) that ended in a woman accusing Smith of rape — Kennedy seemed to change. He became a true, serious, and respected legislator. He immersed himself in Senate business, especially in overhauling the nation's health-care system....

Rudin’s Monday blog:

I received a lot of mail, a good percentage of it ugly, over my Friday post about the 40th anniversary of Chappaquiddick — the shorthand description of the July 1969 accident in which a car Sen. Ted Kennedy was driving went over a bridge, resulting in the death of a young woman, Mary Jo Kopechne.

Much of the mail took me to task for having the insensitivity (their word) of reminding people of the accident as Kennedy is suffering from brain cancer. Others wondered why I would mention this when "what Bush and Cheney did was much worse" (their words). As if one thing had anything to do with the other.

With Kennedy approaching the end of his 46-year Senate career — the third longest in history — I was aware that this post might be considered controversial. At the same time, I balanced the post by talking about the Massachusetts Democrat's long career, his political highs and lows, and his legislative accomplishments. Anyone who has been covering politicians for as long as I have knows that there are good and bad in everyone, and to ignore the bad stuff because it might be painful to remember is a disservice to history....

Chappaquiddick happened. Whatever Kennedy has accomplished in his latter years — and he became a true giant in the Senate — it was a significant blot on his record. At the time, it said volumes about his maturity and judgment. More significantly, it cost a young woman her life. It doesn't erase what he has done since. But it's part of the record.

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Of course, when W gets brain cancer in twenty years or so, the Liberal media will do all it can to remind us why we shouldn't sympathize with his family and that--finally--some justice has been done.

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 Originally Posted By: BASAMS The Plumber

Here’s more of how Newsweek’s Meacham addressed Chappaquiddick as part of Kennedy’s legacy: In the sentiment of the moment — Ted Kennedy is dying, and the subject of his essay for us, health care, is his last great battle — we do him, and ourselves, a kind of disservice if we smooth over the rougher elements of his long story. Forty years ago to the day that we closed this essay, Kennedy drove off a bridge at Chappaquiddick in the darkness, crashing into the water and leaving his passenger, Mary Jo Kopechne, behind as he swam to the surface and left the scene. He did not report the accident until morning; only then was her body found.


American Spectator is a little more precise on what this creep did:
  • While Miss Kopechne may well still have been alive, this man, this senator
    • walked past four houses without asking for help,
    • returned to a guest cottage and did not call for help,
    • went back to his hotel and went to sleep,
    • awoke, showered, hung out on a hotel balcony with the winners of a regatta, chatting pleasantly,
    • took the ferry back to Chappaquiddick, ignoring aides' advice to report the incident, making numerous phone calls to others but still not reporting the incident....
  • and he still suffered no legal ramifications worth talking about, still stayed in office, and still had the appalling viciousness to slander Judge Robert Bork, smear all sorts of other Republicans, accuse President Bush of bribing foreign leaders, bent every rule of decency in his treatment of his ideological adversaries, set up sham investigations of judicial nominees, and in essence spent a whole career doing horrible things that only he could get away with, meanwhile seriously eroding our level of public discourse and of conduct in office (not to mention his awful private conduct for another two decades at least after Chappaquiddick).

    Ted Kennedy's actions on the night of July 18-19, 1969, were the actions of a reckless man and of an utter, pathetic, gutless coward.

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 Originally Posted By: the G-man
Rob's counterpoint to whomod and JQ bring up another aspect of thsi whole "liberal hate" or "liberal double standard" question.

It seems like there is growing inability among members of the left to be able to draw reasonable distinctions, preferring to judge behavior simply on whether or not they like the actor.

For example:

  • To a liberal, Ted Kennedy driving drunk and leaving a woman to die (an act for which he plea bargained to a lesser charge) is no worse than George Bush driving drunk and not hurting anyone, or Laura Bush running a stop sign (which nearly EVERYONE has done) and causing a fatal accident.

    To a liberal, Al Sharpton leading a chant against, and urging violence against "Blood Sucking Jews" is no worse than Trent Lott saying something nice--albeit not particular well thought out--about 98 year old Strom Thurmond.

    To a liberal, Bill Clinton ignoriing the UN and acting unilaterally in Bosnia is way better than George Bush ignoring the UN and acting unilaterally in Iraq.

    To a liberal, Bill Clinton (allegedly) dodging the draft by going to Oxford is fine, but George Bush (allegedly) dodging the draft by serving in the National Guard is desertion.

    To a liberal, calling the guy trying to guard your life a "son of a bitch" to his face is no worse than calling a hostile reporter an "asshole" in a private conversation.

    To a liberal, a movie director screwing his step-daughter--or raping a 13 year old is irrelevant to the director's "genius," but a director who made a movie about Jesus Christ is a "kook," "anti-Semite" or worse.

    To a liberal, flying jets into populated buildings is no worse than bombing an enemy during war.


In each, to a liberal, any transgression by one "their own" no matter how serious is indistinguishable, or even preferable, to an objectively more minor transgression by a member of the opposition.

Is that because of "hate"? Maybe.

Or maybe it's the logical consequence of that "who am I to judge" mentality that has been so prevalent among the left. The mentality that excuses bad behavior by arguing that, somewhere, somehow, there's worse behavior out there. The mentality that looks at criminals as victims, the police as bullies and crime victims as part of a bourgeois capitalist system.

In either event, I think it's time to call them on it, I think people ARE calling them on it more and more...and I think they are freaking out because of it.



And the double-standard continues.

To a liberal, the mere allegation of sexual misconduct against Herman Cain (never proven, by women who have a history of financial problems combined with false allegations and lawsuits) is far worse and warrants multiple times the media coverage given to the absolutely proven sexual indiscretions of Rep. Anthony Weiner.

To a liberal, W. Bush's going to war in Iraq with the authorization of a Senate vote in late 2002 (and almost every Democrat voted for the war) is far worse than President Obama going to war in Libya with absolutely no authorization or following of lawful process.

To a liberal, Rush Limbaugh calling Sandra Fluke a "slut" for wanting the government to pay for her birth control, subsidizing her sex life because she feels it's too expensive while she's a college law student, is far worse than Ed Schultz calling Laura Ingraham a "slut" for no reason other than he disagrees with her conservative political views.
And it's okay for Barack Obama to likewise endorse Bill Maher's similar uncivility, publicly condemning the uncivility of Rush Limbaugh's remark about Sandra Fluke, even as Obama endorses the same behavior by Maher, taking a $1 million-dollar campaign donation from Maher, who has repeatedly called Sarah Palin a "cunt" and many other misogynist insults.

Anything that advances liberals politically becomes moral and acceptable.
Anything that opposes it is immoral.
And any facts that contradict that self-righteous liberal stance simply go unreported and are selectively omitted from the record.


  • from Do Racists have lower IQ's...

    Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.

    EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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So any woman who uses birth control is a slut? Also Schultz was suspended for a week while Rush is in no danger of being suspended. Shame on you WB.


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
So any woman who uses birth control is a slut? Also Schultz was suspended for a week while Rush is in no danger of being suspended. Shame on you WB.


First off, I clearly said previously that Limbaugh's calling Sandra Fluke a "slut" was a dumb comment that allowed the Democrats and liberal media to focus on something other than the real issue (THE REAL ISSUE: Constitutional 1st amendment religious freedom is not forcing Catholic hospitals and universities to provide birth control --against their clearly stated beliefs and doctrine-- to female employees and students. Especially when that service is already provided by public health organizations like Planned Parenthood, and inexpensive private pharmacies like Walmart.)
So Obama's posturing about the rights of women (of which Sandra Fluke is just a hired poster-child) is completely deceptive, and a manufactured diversion from the true issue.

Second, Limbaugh's remark, while annoyingly bombastic and not focused on the real issue, at least has some basis in the actual issue. A woman who is having casual sex, and is so brazen about it that she appears on national television saying that she not only is having sex, but wants the federal government to force her Catholic university, that she chose to attend over other non-religious schools, demanding that Catholic university, against its clear opposition to birth control, pay for her birth control... well... that brazen sexuality, and expressed brazen expectation that the Catholic church fund her sexual exploits... can fairly brand her a "slut".
That's a lot different from the millions of other women who quietly use birth control, and don't put their sexuality on the federal stage in congressional hearings.
So her "slut" label was arguably not insult, but description of the behavior in question.

As opposed to Maher calling Sarah Palin a "cunt", or Schultz calling Laura Ingraham a "slut", simply for being conservative women. And these insults aimed at Ingraham and Palin did not get nearly the same level of exposure in the [liberal] media, despite that they were far more irrelevant and unexplainable.

I doubt most people even know that Maher, at the same time Obama is vocally condemning Limbaugh's remark, is giving 1 million dollars to Obama's campaign, which Obama accepted unapologetically, as he holds Limbaugh to a standard he doesn't hold Maher. The media ought to be reporting that... oh... never.


Schultz was suspended a week, but lost no sponsors, and received virtually no media coverage. In the same situation, liberals are asking for Limbaugh's head on a plate.

Shame on you.


  • from Do Racists have lower IQ's...

    Liberals who bemoan discrimination, intolerance, restraint of Constitutional freedoms, and promotion of hatred toward various abberant minorities, have absolutely no problem with discriminating against, being intolerant of, restricting Constitutional freedoms of, and directing hate-filled scapegoat rhetoric against conservatives.

    EXACTLY what they accuse Republicans/conservatives of doing, is EXACTLY what liberals/Democrats do themselves, to those who oppose their beliefs.
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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
So any woman who uses birth control is a slut...


Misstating the facts.

He didn't call her a slut for using birth control. He postulated that wanting to be paid for sex made her a slut.

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 Originally Posted By: the G-Shill
 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
So any woman who uses birth control is a slut...


Yeah, but...


You should ask your daughter(s) how they feel in being called sluts by Rush Limbaugh. I'm sure they see the Republican value in being slandered by a fat, white drug addict hypocrite....

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I'm sure g-man has called his own daughters sluts before. He once said one should be a stripper or something like that.


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 Originally Posted By: rex
I'm sure g-man has called his own daughters sluts before. He once said one should be a stripper or something like that.


Depends if they vote Republican or not.


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 Originally Posted By: the G-man
 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
So any woman who uses birth control is a slut...


Misstating the facts.

He didn't call her a slut for using birth control. He postulated that wanting to be paid for sex made her a slut.


Now who's doing the mistating? Fluke wasn't asking to be paid for sex. That's why Rush is in trouble with his party.


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 Originally Posted By: Matter-eater Man
Now who's doing the mistating? Fluke wasn't asking to be paid for sex. That's why Rush is in trouble with his party.


She wants someone else to pay for her birth control so she can have sex.................



.....Are you really that stupid?

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yes


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I don't think he was talking to you Rex.


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 Originally Posted By: the G-man
 Quote:
jafabian said:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Sen. Edward Kennedy, D-Massachusetts, on Monday launched a withering election-year attack on President Bush's domestic agenda and again blasted him over his handling of Iraq.

"Iraq is George Bush's Vietnam," Kennedy declared in a speech at the Brookings Institution, a think tank.


The Boston Globe's Jeff Jacoby makes an excellent point about Kennedy's claim:

  • Edward Kennedy likes to label Iraq "George Bush's Vietnam," as he did last week when he introduced legislation to give Congress the final say on troop levels in Iraq.

    Bush played no role in the fall of South Vietnam and Cambodia to the Communists in 1975, of course. But Kennedy did. He helped lead the congressional drive to cut off financial aid to the pro-American governments in Saigon and Phnom Penh, brushing aside President Gerald Ford's warning that "the horror and the tragedy that we see on television" would only grow worse if America deserted its allies.

    But Kennedy and the Democrats spurned Ford, and the result was unspeakable agony--Cambodia's killing fields, Vietnam's re-education camps, waves of "boat people" hurling themselves into the sea. Having seen the results of US abandonment in Indochina, how can Kennedy advocate the same policy in Iraq?

    Ford, a decent man, couldn't imagine deliberately abandoning a friend in dire straits. Kennedy, it seems, isn't so inhibited.


So maybe Iraq is Kennedy's second Vietnam?


I was thinking that Ted Kennedy was a part of the Vietnam War since way further back than that. Back to when it officially began, with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution in August 1964.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kennedy

Kennedy was a sitting Senator since November 1962.


And of the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_Resolution

 Quote:
It was opposed in the Senate only by Senators Wayne Morse (D-OR) and Ernest Gruening (D-AK). Senator Gruening objected to "sending our American boys into combat in a war in which we have no business, which is not our war, into which we have been misguidedly drawn, which is steadily being escalated". (Tonkin Gulf debate 1964)


...only two Senators are listed as having opposed it. And neither is Kennedy.

Several Senators are listed as having vocally regretted their vote later. But Kennedy is not listed among them either.


So it seems a fair assesment that this was Ted Kennedy's second Vietnam.


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