RKMBs Forums .::Important::. Politics and Current Events Coalition forces torture Iraqi prisoners

I don't see that there's much substance to your own posts, Dave, beyond pretentious posturing, self-congratulating assumptions of your alleged moral superiority, and attempting to bait myself and Pam into a flame-war.

I've been trying to ignore your baiting and namecalling, but you just won't let it go.

I think Pam had it right the first time. You're deeply entrenched in your own opinion, and my own experiences with you, across any number of topics, convinces me that she demonstrates more sense than myself and others by not wasting her time trying to spend a lot of time writing a detailed and reasoned post, vainly trying to convince you, and get you to acknowledge the validity of what she's saying.
My own attempts to engage you in reasoned debate have only solicited labels and namecalling from you.
A few prior topics that are examples of this:


Islamic ignorance
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=206064&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Impeach Bush over WMDs?
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=214362&page=8&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Do liberals HATE the President?
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=205426&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

Canada to Allow Same-Sex Marriage
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=201555&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

need to sort out this sh-- very f---ing fast
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=213744&page=17&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

palestine vs. israel
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=207667&page=29&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

why didnt we stop 9-11?
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB27&Number=207829&page=31&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1





I find it easier to discuss issues with you, or even agree with you, when you don't posture with moral outrage and demonize me for not agreeing with you. I think you made a great point in this Korea discussion, for example:

U.N. Nuke Agency Warns N.Korea to Comply
http://www.rkmbs.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=212174&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1




You say here you have "utter contempt" for my opinion that Bush should not have apologized.
Well, your very selective displays of moral outrage demonstrate that your "utter contempt" is utterly worthless.

And I'm frankly amazed that Whomod and Darknight613 are giving you the equivalent of online high-fives for posting this antagonistic fluff.

Quote:

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Originally posted by Dave:
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This story reads like the US have overthrown one tortuous regime and replaced it with another.

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You say there is no difference between the U.S. military occupation, and the murderous tyranny of Saddam. That is an infuriatingly partisan and anti-American distortion.

• The United States military court (or JAG) has arrested and will prosecute 7 military police who were guards at Abu Ghraib prison camp.
• 6 more military officers above them will receive negative reviews that will, at the least, end their military careers.
• 4 interrogation officers will likewise be reviewed, and if not subject to military law, will be prosecuted under civil law.
• Beyond intimidation, humiliation and sexual poses of Iraqi prisoners (which is still a far cry from Saddam's systematic rape, torture and murder of 1 million Iraqis buried in mass graves all over Iraq, still bound and blindfolded), there are 25 suspected Iraqi prisoner deaths, 25 individual incidents under investigation, that may have been from illegal U.S. military action toward Iraqi prisoners.
  Out of roughly 135,000 U.S. soldiers in Iraq, and roughly 350,000 U.S. soldiers who have served in rotation in Iraq over the last year, that is a very small ratio of incidents.
  But don't let that stop you from saying that American occupation is "just as bad as Saddam." Distorted, partisan anti-American liberal vitriol that it is.
  
• Abu Ghraib, which has until recently held 3500 prisoners, is pushing forward the release over the next month of all but 1500 prisoners, releasing upon review all who do not have solid reason to be detained.
• Extreme scrutiny is being made of existing procedure, and of past incidents, and a firm procedure being established to be sure these type of incidents NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN.
• There is even talk of compensating the individuals who were mistreated. And since it is Rumsfeld who is suggesting it, that will probably happen.
  
• Every last officer in our military, and every last politician in Washington has condemned these acts as criminal:
  The field soldiers. The generals, the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Every member of the Bush Cabinet. And the President himself, on exclusive interviews for al Arabiya and al Jazeera, no less. Bush, and everyone else has said they condemn these tortures, regard them as internationally unlawful.
  
• In Abu Ghraib under Saddam's control, things went far beyond humiliation. As many as 2000 a day died in Abu Ghraib under Saddam. And that was state authorized.
  The American abuses were not.
  Seven enlisted soldiers, and a few low-level superiors. It was exposed by others in the U.S. military, there has been no cover-up. The American government has discovered what was occurring, and it has taken full responsibility for it.

With Bush saying that it is shameful, and against military procedure, condemning it in the harshest terms, I felt at that point that an apology was superfluous and unneccesary.

But after seeing John McCain intervewed on a PBS panel discussion, my opinion has changed slightly, and I now see the point of apologizing.
McCain says: We're the Americans, and even though we don't have to, we demonstrate a higher standard because we do apologize. A terrible thing has occurred, and in making full disclosure, the right thing to do is apologize, whether or not Iraqis and the rest of the world appreciate the gesture.




What I'd like to know, Dave, is:
Where is your posturing outrage for the four Americans killed in Fallujah three weeks ago, who were beaten to death, burned, had their bodies dismembered, had their charred vivisected bodies dragged by Iraqis through the streets of Fallujah, and then hung on display from a nearby bridge?
Where is your outrage, where is the world's outrage, at this?!?

And where is your outrage for al Qaida's beheading (beheading !!) on video ( !!) of an American civilian, Michael Berg. Something that has been graphically run repeatedly on arab news. No doubt to gleeful audiences throughout the muslim world.

From what I've seen, these incidents have largely been ignored and glossed over in Arab and European news. Selective rage is reserved for the shortcomings of the United States.

And as Fouad Ajami said in the PBS discussion I posted on page 2 of this topic (which you apparently ignored) the Arabs always have negative things to say about the United States, as do France, as do other anti-American factions and leftists worldwide. With or without Abu Ghraib.
The United States is already correcting its mistakes.

Our allies understand that this is war, and these kind of things, tragic as they are, unfortunate as they are, occasionally happen in war.
And for our enemies, it's just another excuse to attack the United States, just more feul for an already raging fire of partisan hatred for the United States.